Talkback: ASICS Target 26.2 Team: Colin

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  • Interesting stuff Steve regarding pacing of a half 3 weeks before the marathon. In reality although these are races they are not “A” goal races. Would a half done 3 weeks out be more of a good indicator of predicted marathon pace than one run 6 -8 weeks out, if run in the manner you suggested (starting off at MP then pushing more int he last 10)?
  • Interesting stuff on racing a HM and 20 milers.  I am not sure I would be brave enough as I have never done it before.  

    I ran a 20 mile race last year but treated it as a progressive run, starting off at MP+40s, running 8 miles at MP and then finishing with a couple of fast miles.  It was great to be passing hundreds from the halfway mark and finishing strongly.  Also no recovery needed afterwards and was running the next day as normal.

  • I ran a 20 mile race in 2009 as part of my prep for my spring marathon and I reckon I left a good proportion of a decent time for the marathon on those roads. I did 3-19 that year at London when aiming at sub 3-15 and looking back I ran the 20mile race too quickly in 2-21 which was quicker than MP at about 7m03s pace. I just never truly recovered and kept plugging away making myself more tired.
  • Re 20 mile races - I've done one in the lead up to some of my recent marathons and wholeheartedly agree that they take more out than they give back.  I've done these at marathon goal pace and although they gave me a great psycological boost I am convinced they had a significant contribution to me struggling in the last few miles of the marathon.  They don't appear in my schedule (just finished it) for next spring!!!  Oh, i'm not one of Steve's ultra men but am one who needs to plan to get through the last few miles OK, hence the above.
  • I'll pitch in for the pro 20-mile race camp. Did one at the end of March, 6 weeks before the marathon, bimbled round in 2:16 so average pace of 6:49 and then did the full at 6:45 pace. I reckon it is horses for courses, for me doing 20@MP was a big confidence thing and I will do so again this year, so racing Finchley 20 on March 11th. It was at the end of a big 2 weeks, my biggest weeks at 62 each, then the speed up and distance down phase started.
  • Steve - I've just finished my spring marathon schedule using the RW Ultimate sub 4hr as the basis and tweaked it to suit me.  I'm erring on the cautious side this time as I struggled a bit in this year's races as I overtrained.  I've kept the mix of speed/tempo/long/recovery/rest etc and the total mileage is the same.  I wondered if you would be prepared to comment on the long slow (MP+60 secs) run distances I've picked from week 7 to the race which are;

    15/18/20/10/half race/20/28/14/10/race  ?

  • oscarr wrote (see)

    Steve - I've just finished my spring marathon schedule using the RW Ultimate sub 4hr as the basis and tweaked it to suit me.  I'm erring on the cautious side this time as I struggled a bit in this year's races as I overtrained.  I've kept the mix of speed/tempo/long/recovery/rest etc and the total mileage is the same.  I wondered if you would be prepared to comment on the long slow (MP+60 secs) run distances I've picked from week 7 to the race which are;

    15/18/20/10/half race/20/28/14/10/race  ?

    whoops, should read "18" in week 13 and not "28" - sorry!

  • 2:50 - re the 20 mile races, that's a fair point and at the end of the day I guess it's down to the individual knowing if the body can take it and still perform later - horses for courses as you say.
  • Personally I wouldn't risk racing a 20 miler, or even running it @ MP. I usually enter the Ashby 20 though and run it at LSR pace up to mile 18 then put my foot down a bit. That's 5 weeks before VLM. 4 weeks before I usually race a HM all out (so I'm also looking for one on the 25th March). Where is Wilmslow? And where is Fleet? I'm veering towards the horribly hilly Stafford again but could be tempted elsewhere. I got very excited by the news of a Loughborough HM that day as it's just down the road from me, until I discovered it's only approx 13 miles and not even measured!
  • CC2 - Speedy Goth wrote (see)
    I got very excited by the news of a Loughborough HM that day as it's just down the road from me, until I discovered it's only approx 13 miles and not even measured!
    I ran Loughborough one year and was going well but a little bemused when the 12 mile marker came up in under the hour. Turns out there was an accident on the M1 and the course had to be changed so they cut off a loop.
  • Speedy - Fleet is in Hampshire, Wilmslow is in Cheshire. There is also a half mara in Northumberland on 25th March. And one in Hastings!! 
  • Enjoying the updates, Knight Rider.... glad Saturday was a good experience (I'm not jealous any more... not, honestly, I'm not!).

     I'll be following this thread (not online at home at the moment, but will be able to contribute more when I am). The pacing stuff is particularly useful for me - that's a big weakness. Having perhaps not tapered properly in the past, I'll be looking at that too.

  • Speedy I haven't done the Northumberland half but have heard its quite hilly. I'm doing one on the 2nd march in Edinburgh which is quite flat but maybe a bit soon for you?
  • Both Wilmslow and Fleet are good halfs - think Wilmslow is slightly more interesting course and slightly quicker. Hastings is a bit harder (first 5 are quite tough - second half much quicker)  but great training and I think better atmosphere.

    Generally 20 miles at close to or slightly slower than marathon pace shouldnt be a major problem but agree best option is 10 miles relaxed and then second 10 miles at marathon pace 

  • I think everyone is different in terms of training and pace for races pre marathons. Some are able to cope with 20 @ MP and others not. I'd like to think that having not done a 20 mile race in training before a marathon I would go with Steve's stratergy of first 10 relaxed then next 10 @ MP.
  • It was my work Xmas meal tonight and we had a secret santa - love the person who bought me this - very topical!

    /members/images/77921/Gallery/Secret_Santa_Paris.jpg

     Should really blur out the Nike logo image !

  • I've raced the Bramley 20 for the last couple of years, and done it at around MP or even slightly faster. This is a good 2 months out from the marathon however so definitely time to recover. I like to do it as it's a great confidence booster to be able to run 20 at MP at that point.
  • I did a 23 mile progressive run 3 weeks before VLM 2010 and lived to regret it big time. Some people can cope with 20 mile races that close to the marathon and others simply can't. As has already been said, know and listen to your body and if you're not sure, don't push it!
    KR - Posting at 00:46? Shouldn't you be tucked up in bed getting plenty of rest before Monday! Nice secret Santa pressies!

  • Planning on keeping it easy this week ahead of starting the schedule next week, so probably around 6 - 7 miles tonight and something similar on Thursday/Friday.
    I'll hopefully get to test my new Garmin 610 tonight as it's all charged up and ready. I've been wearing it as a watch today and it is so much lighter than the 405. I think it will take a few goes to get used to it. This one has a touch screen rather than the bezel, so I'm hoping rain/sweat won't be it's downfall!
  • Nice Secret Santa present KR.  They know you well!!!!   Very jealous of the Garmin 610.  Looks very good for techie/geeks image but way out of sensible price range at the moment.

    Enjoy the next few days easy running before the serious stuff starts.

  • Hmm, Wilmslow isn't much further away than Stafford and I can get a Travelodge at Manchester Airport for £33. Might have to try that one for a change. Thanks for the tip!

    PMSL at the Secret Santa presents. They know you, but not well enough. I mean, really, who actually uses a donut bottle?!
  • I use them bottles all the time! image
  • Do you cart it round Parkrun and never actually take a drink out of it?
  • He actually drinks from it Speedy!!!!image

  • I don't do donuts at a Parkrun.
  • This article might interest you KR (sorry I can't do proper links). Looks like you might want to put some pickle juice in that donut bottle after all.
    http://www.runnersworld.com/article/0,7120,s6-241-285--13889-0,00.html?cm_mmc=Twitter-_-RunnersWorld-_-Content-Training-_-PreventCramps
  • Thanks for the link Speedy, just tried a few reps of the two way hops, will build that into my routine. I've heard about the pickle juice phenomenon before, a lot of American football teams swear by it.

    8 miles tonight @ av 7.43 pace. Went to the townhall square to see the Xmas lights. Ironically some of the houses that I passed on the ring road on the way there were 10 x better! Was tempted to wear my new secret santa head band, but opted for a hat instead - didn't think I was going to sweat too much!

  • Used my new Garmin 610 last night on my run. Still getting to grips with it, but I was impressed with the feature where it buzzes & vibrates everytime you do a mile. For me this can only be a good thing, so i can concentrate on running and not looking at my wrist  every so often to see what the last mile split was. And being a deaf old man I won't miss it with the vibrations!

    Is anyone doing a Parkrun on Xmas Eve - was toying with the idea if I can get a pass out of the house on Xmas Eve image.

  • KR - what would be really cool is if the Garmin spoke your mile splits so that you don't have to look at the display at all! Being technologically-challenged, I have to plot out my routes beforehand and memorise the mile-markers... I had toyed with the idea of a parkrun on Christmas Eve, but have opted for an early solo run as normal. Maybe New Year's Eve instead?
  • I'll be race directing the Black Park parkrun on Saturday image
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