Howdy, Stranger!
Categories
Options
Overdone it?
The materials in this website are in no way intended to replace the professional medical care, advice, diagnosis or treatment of a doctor, qualified personal trainer, therapist, dietitian or nutritionist Runners's World, Part of the Hearst UK well-being network © Copyright 2017
Comments
but don't the adizero manas that you race in also have a lower heel drop?
Mana's have an 8mm heel drop (I think) which is quite close to my Nike's (12mm) and my Adidas Tempo (10.5mm). I was slightly concerned that dropping down to 4mm would be a bit much. In fact when I first wore the Mana's I got really tight calfs and thought I'd never be able to wear them, I'm sure I would get used to them over time, but will probably stick with Adidas for the time being as they seem to fit me well.
It probably depends on how you run as well. I don't see why you'd change just for the sake of it if the shoes you've already got are working well for the things you use them for. I do love my Kinvaras though.
Whoops, that should say calves not calfs.
Okay - firstly I'm going to discount the race day mentality - I have a race day vest, you put a number on your vest on race day and I have race day socks plus the other runners at the start all get my race day head on. But here are some questions that would effect my decision.
1) When you first ran in racing shoes what was the distance, what was your PB prior to that run and what was the time you ran?
2) If I've trained in Brooks Ghost and then suddenly change on race day to something else does it not feel weird - I'm probably a mid foot striker so would wonder how it feels to suddenly be running with less shoe under my feet.
3) From comments above about heel drop and sore calves it does sound as if I would be more likely to get injured wearing racing shoes - true or false?
4) If I decided now that racing shoes were definitely required for 6th October would that be enough time to bed them in - or are we really talking about a decision for next year?
5) If Lit and Tommy want to answer question 1) too then that would all help to build a picture.
Its just really hard to decide what is marketing claptrap and what genuinely makes a difference. Reading the article about Mo Farah's shoes it states that they may knock off 2 minutes over a marathon - however these shoes are not just light but being custom designed for his feet and running style - so that suggests that the gain from non tailored racing shoes over a half marathon would be less than 1 minute - I'm not sure if that is worth the increased injury risk (if there is one?).
Cheers, Skinny
Bah, was just answering most of those (in ill-informed way) when I lost the whole post. But question (1) doesn't really work because there are too many other variables.
Also: race day socks? Loser.
They are lighter than my training socks and I reckon knocked about 53 seconds off my 10k time the other week
Hmm - okay then if I bought some racing shoes and went out and did a hard training session (wearing the racing shoes obviously!!) would I find that my pace zones had dropped by 3 or 4 seconds a mile? Surely there must be some way of feeling if they are actually faster or not?
Coach's point about all the fast runners wear them is not necessarily proof that you are faster if you wear them. It's likely that running is a bigger part of all their lives and they clutch at every straw for faster times and read the marketing claptrap etc and spend more money on their gear and are more likely to have more than one pair of shoes.
If wearing racing shoes does not increase the risk of injury and has a believable case for running faster then I'm up for buying some.
Okay, it's going to be a bit anecdotal, but I will say that wearing lighter shoes certainly feels faster. I think there may be actual scientific studies but you can look those up for yourself. I actually have three different types of road shoe that I wear regularly: Brooks Defyance (250g per shoe, 11mm drop), New Balance 890 (200-ish g, 8mm drop), Saucony Kinvara (175g, 4mm drop). I use the heavier, more cushioned shoes for longer runs or when I just want to plod along, the 890s for quite a lot of 'normal' runs and the Kinvaras for most quality stuff and races. But I can also report that if I wear the Kinvaras for 'easy' runs I am generally more likely than not to stray into the 'steady' zone.
Re. questions (2) and (3) I think that it is possible Tommy got sore calves at first because flatter shoes encourage you to land further forward on your foot and if he was not already doing this, it would be a bit of an adjustment. If you are already a neutral mid-foot striker you would be (I think) less likely to have a problem; I didn't.
I am also assuming here that 'racing flats' and 'minimalist shoes' are more or less the same thing or similar. And also the 890s and Kinvaras especially have a surprising amount of cushioning considering how light they are.
I began to consider something more lightweight, Skinny - but my injury episode has made me more wary.
I've for the most part got on quite well with Adidas Supernova Glides (the narrow Adidas fit seems to suit my feet), and some of the fellas over on the MG thread were recommending the Adidas Bostons as a transition step down towards a racing flat.
I've got about 300 miles on the Supernovas, so might change my mind again when the time comes, but less cushioning does equal increased injury risk as I understand it.
Losing a block of training to injury is going to cost more time in the medium to long term than the few seconds here and there that a stripped down shoe will shave off your time - that's my current thinking at least for what it's worth.
Lit - thanks for taking the time to give those detailed answers - really appreciate it.
http://www.runningshoesguru.com/2012/02/5-myths-about-minimalist-running-shoes/
I've read the attached too - sounds like it is too close to race day for this year and may need to be something I build up to over the winter - or I could buy some now and trial them in my 10 miler in mid November.
Edit:Bob x-post - yeah that's my current thinking too but I'm hoping Coach will persuade me that I am mistaken
Skinny - that article you've linked to seems to match my experiences - I was already quite light on my feet and running with efficient form, so it wasn't really an adjustment at all, and the shoes I have are still a bit cushioned anyway. When I went to buy lighter shoes I wanted to try on some kinvaras but they didn't have any, so the guy in the shop gave me some other saucony shoes for the fit and analysed my gait for me while I was there. He said 'you can basically wear whatever shoes you like', and then sent me off to another running shop who had more different lightweight shoes for me to try. I played on their treadmill for about half an hour with five different brands of shoe before choosing the 890s.
All of which is to say: if you run efficiently anyway and since you are, as we know, quite skinny, you might find you can get away with lightweight shoes more easily than some runners. I wouldn't necessarily be buying them for your next race though.
Ok, based on my (very limited) experience...After getting advice from a faster runner, he suggested I got some lightweight/racing running shoes, as I slightly over-pronate I was advised that Adidas Mana 7's were best for me (first pair of Adidas running shoes). My first run in them (3 miles) did feel faster but not sure if that was just a psychological 'gain'. Afterwards I had tight calves, but not enough to stop me running (in my more cushioned Nike trainers), I kept alternating between the two pairs over about 3 weeks and then ran a HM in them and no pain my calves at all following the race. A few weeks later I used them for the marathon, and came out relatively unscathed, I don't think my recent hip injury can be attributed to the shoes I was wearing.
I now have a couple of pairs of Adidas trainers and whilst they are lightweight they have a decent amount of cushioning, they fit my foot well and I haven't suffered from sore calves for about 6 months.
Not sure if that helps or not!
I wouldn't recommend running in a new pair of untried shoes on race day.
Interesting article, and subsequent comments beneath, Skinny - food for thought.
As I think I've mentioned on here before, I've a theory that my tendon problem at least in part arose because of my tendency to over-pronate in my left foot, particularly at easy pace. I think I was already getting up on to my mid-foot / toes at faster paces, and if all of that is true could at least part explain why during my recovery I was sooner able to cope with tempos/parkruns than I have been longer, slower training runs.
Because of that I'm now making a conscious effort during easy paced running to strike with the mid-foot, reduce my stride length and increase my cadence. I've only been doing this for a few weeks, and from what I've read the transition can take months to complete, though my early impression is that it is already having some effect.
Perhaps a more stripped down shoe might actually help me as I continue this process?
Skinny, some people swear blind that minimalist trainers are the way to go 100% of the time, let alone just for races. For every runner who fears injury in going down in weight, you'll find one who claims their injuries have reduced since doing so.
My coach's first reaction on hearing I was racing in day to day trainers was surprise and calling them "clogs". I think that's apt, as you're carrying extra weight. How could that not slow you down?
Quantifying it is quite hard, unless you ran the same race in the 2 different pairs with the same effort! But when you say the faster runners are the ones who put more thought and take any margin they can to get faster, well...aren't they the folks to follow for tips?
Personally, i'd never want to race in heavy trainers again.
Upto you though, and you'd be well advised to get some specialist shop advice!
And that's enough from me for a bit
skinny - over the past yr count how many miles you raced as a % of how many miles you trained. I bet its low %.
Race in racers, train in trainers
http://www.drpribut.com/sports/spshoe.html
Okay coach - thanks. This articles reckons research shows that there is a gain of 1 second per mile for each ounce lighter but an increased risk of injury.
There are 30 grams in an ounce so think I need to go to my running shop and discuss. Think they will probably think I should buy some!!
Hadn't thought of my trainers as heavy before (or clogs!) - I'm supposed to be running 8 miles in them tonight - not sure how I'll manage to drag them that far now - let alone the 16 miles on Sunday.
They might not - mine thought I should try on the model they had, but that there was no point them ordering the ones I wanted in for me as they'd take ages to arrive (with a tacit understanding between us that I might as well buy last season's colours online).
Thanks Dean - it's 3.95% since 1st January - so your point is that I wouldn't injure myself because if you only run 4% of all your running in racing shoes then its not a big enough % to cause injury.
Skinny - I feel responsible for opening a can of worms and causing you to go and (potentially) buy some new trainers. All from a casual observation about your trainers....sorry! Hope you don't get injured wearing them.
Have you read the book 'Born to Run' by Chris McDougall?
Yep, heavier shoes are about support or cushioning so i dont think you are statistically likely to get an injury in a race caused by a lighter shoe. Besides there is an intangible magic in wearing racers, or a vest or watching Rocky 4 the night before.
however i must own up to having spent long periods this summer injured so take with a pinch of salt
although it was down to my stupidity in training rather than my footwear
Tommy - surely I was responsible for posting the link to my GNR photos? And if it makes me a faster racer then I'm pleased you said it. Remember that I missed out on 3rd MV45 prize in my 10k by 10 seconds - could racing shoes have made the difference.........
Yes - it was first running book I read - I did enjoy it and it is very pro minimalist trainers. I've also read Running with the Kenyans which gives a more balanced view.
To be honest though the idea of dropping my training to once round a field and building it up so I can run on my forefoot didn't really appeal.
What I have found interesting is the more running I have done and the faster I have got I am naturally spending more time on my forefoot - at least that's how it feels so I presume my form is improving the more I run.
I have also been doing the odd minute here and there of stride counting (at easy pace I'm about 164) and to get up to 180+ have to shorten my stride which seems to require me to go up on my toes - i've been doing this for a minute here and there on my easy days and that may also be improving my form on all runs? I don't do it for longer than a minute because it feels like hard work and easy runs aren't supposed to be hard work - my understanding though is I should be able to run easy pace and effort and 180 strides per minute - another one for the winter!
Just dropping in to see how Skinny did in the GNR! Lol at your report!! A tip for future - go to the loos on the Town Moor. The queue is a lot shorter. And as for peeing in the bushes, well that's all part of the GNR. I'd been about three times and still nipped out my pen for a last pee in the trees!! Your paces sound really good. Although its a net downhill course (apparently) there are some long drags to contend with and they're not noticeable on your splits.
As for lightweight shoes. I have been running for years and bought my first pair of races this summer. I wore them for a 5k (didn't make me faster
), a 10k (didn't make me faster 
) and the GNR (did make me faster 
). I was a bit concerned about doing 13 miles in them especially because I'd had a tight calf during the week and I'm prone to calf problems but it worked well on the day. I don't think I'll ever race in clogs again!
Yeah but yours are red, aren't they Minni? Makes a difference.
Kind of a pinkie red. With sparkles.
Sounds like pinkie red sparkly racers are the way to go then!
Does that mean you got a HM PB at the GNR Minni? Well done if so - I guess a net downhill course with the wind behind makes it a good race for PBs if you start in the right place - what time did you do?
EDIT: PS Just got back from an 8 miles with strides in my clogs.
I bet you weighed your shoes when you got home from work, Skinny.
PS: Minni is going to do another half marathon soon in sub-1:30 and then she is going to come and join all the cool kids on the vlm champs start with the posh loos.
No but I have now and got a bit of a shock 362g according to kitchen scales - 303g according to shoe description???????
That sounds excellent for Minni - I didn't realise there were HM times you could use to qualify for VLM entry - are there GFA ones or only for the Champs start?
Only for the champs start. That's how I got in this year.
Depends what size the shoes are, I think. Mine are usually lighter than advertised.