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Base Training
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the lactic acid bullds up (and then is removed or not) inside the working muscles, rather than inside the whole body
spin classes too, which i used to equate to cycling speed work - 45 mins at 182-192 typically
However, for the LT to be nudged up by running at or around that threshold (about 170 bpm for me) then we only do up to 40 mins. It works out at half marathon pace for me.
I can run half marathon pace for well over an hour (or else I would slow down) but after a while I would be exceeding the LT to do so.
this debate tells me formulae dont work
im happy at a 150 bpm
or even 160
I guess the one attribute you need to succeed at base training is the one attribute I seriously lack: patience. Primarily, I run because I can and because I love it. Being restricted by an arbitrary heart rate calculated by someone else's formula over the past week has seriously reduced my enjoyment of running. To me there's little enjoyment or feeling of achievement to be gained from plodding along at little more than walking pace at times, and I hate feeling restricted by a little flashing number on my wrist.
I know that base training is about long-term application; results are not immediately apparent and are seen over months not weeks. I perfectly see the sense in running much slower than I've been used to over the next few months in order to build to daily running of an hour or more (I wouldn't be able to do this at my normal pace as I'd have to have recovery days) but do I really have to run so slowly I'm practically walking to get results? Surely I'll improve just by increasing the weekly mileage and keeping the pace slow for the majority of the time but not worrying excessively about the uphills?
I know what the answer to this will be but I can hope!!
I am running at roughly 10min/miles, which is worryingly slow, but the upside is that last week I did 50 miles which I could never normally do. And, last week was tough, even at the low effort it get's me sweating and you feel yesterday's miles in your legs. Another upside is my hip problem that usually accompanies higher intensity training has more or less disappeared
I have done what you are all doing and tried to assess if this is for me (ie will it deliver a sub4 marathon in April) and beleive from the physiological side it could work. I'm giving it til xmas, by which time I will have run also 2 half marathons, if I get good PB's I will be well on my way, if not then I have at least a lot of good miles under my belt.
It must be frustrating Minkin if you have a lot of hills, I organise my routes to avoid most of them. However, you have to play by the rules and since latcic acid inhibits the very thing we want to develop then...
I think that i just see this as experimental period. Anyway none of us has always been following strictly his own training programm. We usually follow general rules and formulas "made" from someone else.
So even that base building phase makes some great sense to me, i always think that NOTHING bad can happen anyway. Instead i have the time and the mood to work on running technique, breathe patterns and so many other running associated stuff i'd never paid attention to! (and think that i'm 3h marathoner...)
Hope this is nearly the answer you hoped for... :-)
Marathon this weekend so will see how I manage.
I'd go and get a copy of John Parkers Heart Monitor training for the compleat idiot. His programmes combine substantial slower running (70% whr) with a bit of speed work. I'm sort of following his philiosophy but substituting races here and there and done at various intensities.
His method for estimating Max HR is
1)take a days rest and make sure you're not tired
2) find a 2-300m steep hills (sounds easy for you)
3) get warmed up
4) do 5 repeats of the hill getting faster each time and jogging down ( no rests)
5) on the last make sure you are sprinting for your life for the last 100m - this should leave you close to "death"
6) watch the HR at the top and for the first few secs after
7) have a freind around to hold you upright :-) at the end
8)Max HR is the highest number you see.
On the subject of hills : most races I do have several therefore I must train on them to use the (different) muscles, I allow myself upto 5-10bpm excursion depending on steepness but let HR drop by about the same on downhills.
For me the big plus is its allowing me to get in miles without aggravating/ developing injuries which serious speedwork seems to encourage.
According to Maffetone/Allen, my maximum aerobic heart rate is around 146 bpm. I'm tempted to add another 5 to this as I've been training 3-4 times a week without injury and showing performance improvement for nearly two years. This takes me up to 151 bpm. I can certainly keep well within this on the flat and downhill - for example last night on the flatter part of my route I kept a constant 146 bpm going for a good 5-10 minutes. The hills are fairly steep though and literally within three or four steps into the final ascent last night my HR had exceeded 151. I suppose I should have walked until it fell again but as mentioned above I'm afraid I lost patience and decided to find my maximum HR by sprinting up the hill instead!!
I do agree that you couldn't up the mileage to the extent that you have unless you were slowing the pace considerably (and remain injury free, anyway). I am, however, finding it really difficult to deal with running 10+ minute miles - for a start it's affecting my running form and making me run unnaturally. Secondly, it makes every run feel like an eternity, and I don't really enjoy them at the moment because I don't feel I'm getting any benefit. Logically, I know that I am - it just doesn't feel that way. OK, it must be doing something because I do sweat even at these low HRs, it's just somehow less satisfying. At the moment my mileage is still low (Pantman recommended starting with no more than 20-25 minutes a day) - last week I ran for 30 minutes each day but because of the slow pace this only equates to 3 miles at a time - so that was only 21 miles last week, less than I would normally do in 4 sessions!
Perhaps I'll only start to reap the benefits when the mileage starts getting higher?
I think what I'm trying to determine is whether the formula for maximum aerobic heart rate (180-age +/- 5-10 beats taking into account other factors) needs to be quite so hard and fast - if I go 5 beats over what the formula tells me my maximum should be am I necessarily going out of my aerobic zone? I know theoretically that I should keep well below my maximum aerobic HR but as said before, this is impossible on steep hills and I really don't want to be walking up every damn one!
As you have said before yours is 151. If i'm running steep hills -as you do- i'm reaching at worse case 160(!) and that only near the end of my training.
So i guess you shouldn't have much problem going from 151 to 154-5 during steep hills.
Personally i'm trying to concentrate in small/fast and light steps without pushing hard back but lifting feet quickly!
Give these a try if you wish.Hope you don't get discouraged!
When on the tready last week, i started thinking about my next marathon
Not a good move
How do I get round that??!
as silly as the idae of a 24 hour track race!
or no to the track race?
You on the other hand... Go for it!
but he might gt bored after a couple of hours
The idea of running round a track who knows how many times for 24 hours i can't bear to think about it people who do i absolutely marvel at i would get so bored i would however not rule out a 24 hour race passing scenery A to B she says where you would have an idea of how far you've travelled.
But Not for a long long time maybe when billy connolly is prime minister.
Cos its there
if you sign up for hull he can come and watch you.... (but do it soon the places are being snapped up apparently)