P + D training for VLM 2013



  • KeirKeir ✭✭✭

    The bpm figures are so personal they don't mean anything Tenjiso. Better would be to give % of max HR figures. For example my max is 190bpm so my easy runs are 70% (132bpm) at the moment. I am only going over 142bpm (75%) once per week.

  • NN - my longest treadmill run is 20 miles.  Not something I'd relish doing again though image

    Keir - my heart rate range was based on my max of 191bpm and resting heart rate of 49bpm (142bpm HRR).  The GA range was given as 62% - 75%, which I calculated as 137-156bpm.  The way you are calculating, my understanding was that the recovery heart rate was up to 76% of max (70% of HRR)?  I'm getting this from page 144 of the book (2nd Edition).  Sorry if I'm getting confused.

    I sometimes doubt my max heart rate and wonder if the HRM blipped when I did my original test (some years ago now).  I try to give myself a bit of leeway, in case I've got it wrong.  I can't face doing another max test though image.

  • I think I'd better join this thread as I was lucky enough to get into Boston on Apr 15th with an age time (55, 3:36). In all my previous 20 marathons in the last 7 years I've used one or other of the RW Garmin-ready plans, the last few following a 3:30 plan even though I'm not quite there yet. (If you allow me to weight my time for my age then I'm equivalent to about 3:08 image so maybe I should use a 3:00 plan?)

    Anyway I thought I might try the 55-70 plan since my previous plans topped out at about 60 miles and I'm running on maintenance after the last marathon in October at about 160-170 m/month. At first glance there seems to be a bit less weight on intervals and more on a mid-week medium-long.

    I prefer to run on HR so I will have to convert the sessions to %HRmax bands. this allows me to cancel out the effect of terrain, offroad, snow on the ground etc rather than run on pace. Where I am I'm nearly always on trails with snow and ice at this time of year, temps so far this year down to -15 but usually in the single digit -C.

    Someone asked about gloves. For single digit minus I love Salewa Windstopper gloves/mittens. they have fingerless fingers and a flap that folds over if I want to convert to mittens. this lets me regulate heat, operate Garmin and ipod, etc. For double digit minus I put a pair of glove liners under them. They're a bit pricey and hard to find but they're worth it. (I also use them XC skiing.)

    Looking forward to following the P&D from the 2nd edition (18 week) with you experienced people and I have already imported it into Fetch.

  • Tenjiso, impressive treadmilling! Looking at your paces, that means 3 and a half hours? Longest tread I've done is 16 miles in 2h15m, but good to see I'm not the only one who bashes out mammoth efforts on the mill. image Main problem for me is, er, chafing - I'm wet through after a long session in the gym.

  • Steve C, P&D has a table with the HR bands. No need to convert.

  • Good luck for those of you starting the 18 week P&D plans next week for London Marathon in April.

    I'll be starting 1 week behind, for the Manchester marathon the following week, so will be keeping a keen eye on this thread to see what people think of the plans week on week. I'm a little concerned that I won't be able to manage the target paces in the training runs, since i've been doing almost all my running at a very low intensity for the past 3-4 months, but I'll find out soon enough how my legs will cope with the extra effort of running at a quicker pace.

  • I was considering starting the 18 week course on Monday. Over the last two weeks my left leg has got more and more sore around the knee. I think I need to rest it. Sucky timing or what! image Seeing physio on Mon and sports massage on Tue. Bet they tell me to rest it too image

  • stutyrstutyr ✭✭✭

    AgentGinger, I wouldn't worry too much about the change in pace.  I had the same concern after a couple of months of base training, but found it a refreshing change to pick up the pace for the LT session (although it got harder towards the end).  This is where you will seethe benefit from all those slow miles, and how good it feels to be running fast again/

    Khanivore, better for it to be now rather than mid-plan.  From memory you're a new(ish) and very keen runner, so maybe this is your body asking for an easy week.  Its better to get it sorted now before the intensive section of the plan starts.


  • yeah i guess - going to do my best to resist running between now and monday/tuesday.

  • LunchtimeRunner wrote (see)

    Tenjiso, impressive treadmilling! Looking at your paces, that means 3 and a half hours? 

    I hope that doesn't mean I've made (another) mistake with pacing.  I'm targeting 4:00 for the marathon.  I recently ran 1:54 HM, and 49:50 10K, so I'm probably just an outside bet.

  • stutyrstutyr ✭✭✭

    Hi Tenjiso, your pace range sounds about right for a 4hr target time.  Aerobic runs are supposed to be 15 to 25% slower than marathon pace.  For a four hour marathon, this is 9'10" min/miles, so if you add on 20% (i.e. half way though the recommended range) you get exactly 11' min/mile, with 15% being around the 10'30" m/m pace.

    If it helps - the mcmillan pace calculator converted your 1:54 HM into a 3:59 marathon time. image


  • Go CazGo Caz ✭✭✭

    Getting close now to starting the (up to 55 mile) schedule on Monday for VLM! Does anyone know where I can find a printable version, rather than having to refer to the book all the time? 

  • Tenjiso - I'm aiming for 4 hours too, so you're not alone.  I have a 1:47 pb for HM and 4:09 for the marathon so we're about the same pace.  I would normally take 3:30-3:40 for a 20 miler although I could never do that on the treadmill. image

    Go Caz - I just photocopied the pages I needed.

  • Thanks Stutyr.  I'll take that marathon time image

  • Fiona - great HM time - you have a much better chance than me of achieving sub-4.  Which marathon are you targeting?

    I've run two marathons... both in 4:38 image  So I'm looking to knock a serious wedge of time off mine.

    The two 20 milers I've run on the treadmill were both 3:41.  I just zoned-out listening to sport on the radio.  More recently I listen to marathontalk podcasts, and I have no intention of running any more runs above two hours on the treadie.

    I put my planned runs, paces, and so on into a spreadsheet image

  • i plan on putting my runs into my phone calendar, a couple of weeks at a time, so i always know what's coming up for the next couple of weeks.


  • TeknikTeknik ✭✭✭
  • I am amazed how anyone can run for that long on a treadmill, I sometimes do 4-5 milers and that really is all I can manage.

    Ten you obviously have the determination and bloody mindedness needed to see the training through if you can do 20 millers on a treadmill !!

    Mind you having just got back from the most soul destroying 15.6 miler I can see the appeal of running indoors in the warm and dry while listening to the radio..image..when I set of it was just raining lightly.,but by the time I was 7/8 miles in it was hammering down and blowing a sodding gale !! plenty of hills too, I really couldnt have got any wetter, my hands were so numb and cold I could hardly unlock the back door !! Anyway guess there is plenty more of that to come so best get used to it !!

    I run by heart rate and pace varies between 9- 9-30ish for  my long runs..todays was 2.5 hours ave pace of 9.37..battling with a headwind for the last 5 miles.

    My half marathon times are around 1.40-  1 .44 pb 1.39 have done  london 4 times 4.01.... 3.47.... 3.43 and PB 3.40 would   love 3.35 next time but its all about how it goes on the day !! its easy to blow it by going off too fast ...and for me if its warm I got no chance !!!

    I think the calculators are a little generous most people need to add another 10 15 mins to the prediction . But everyone is different...

    Not officailly started my schedule but been doing regular 14-16 milers in prep


  • Have lurked a fair bit since about page 1 of the thread and picking up the mine of information that comes from having so many minds inputting on here.  I have been running about 40+ miles per week for the last 3 weeks or so with no problem, this morning I can feel tight muscles in one calfimage Will rest for a couple of days and test it Sunday hoping to start Monday with the 18 week up to 55 mile plan, that said Day 1 is a rest dayimage

    Interesting to see the relationships between people's HM and marathon times.  I ran a 1.37 in 2008 and then 3.33 at London.  5 years on, and aged 59 when I run in April I don't think it will be quite that good, my HM now is sub 1.45 depending on conditions, so hoping for about 3.45, but if the plan is good might be betterimage

  • NN - great times.  I suspect you are probably right about the actual marathon finishing time.  I'm training for a sub-4 and hoping for a fair wind on the day image  I've recently been running 9:00 - 9:30 pace on my long runs too (up to 12 miles).  However, I realise that would be detrimental to other quality sessions, so I have to try to be disciplined for a few months at least image


  • Doing a half marathon race in March if we can should give us a better ides of how the training is going.

    my times should be quicker really with the years I have been running and the miles I plod...but I have always had a serious aversion to running fast so never really done any structured speed work for a decent length of time I will happily plod around 15 miles but HATE the thought of interval sessions even tempo runs !! but the plus side is I don't get injured as it tends to be the faster stuff that cause problems.

  • Tenjiso - I'm doing VLM.  I have to say that was a fairly recent HM pb after doing VLM in April.  According to that time I should be able to do a marathon in 3:48 or something image so I don't really trust the predictors.

    Night nurse - there is nothing more unpleasant than a run like that.  When you're feet start to squelch you know you're in trouble. I had a similar thing last summer just as I was about to turn round half way through a 14 miler. That's when you wish it had happened earlier and you could abort the whole thing.

  • Fi.. I took my kit off and its was saturated like it had come out the washing machine without going through a spin cycle. I had to scramble up some hedges scratching myself and hitching and snagging my tights  ( I am 50 ffs !!! ) as many of the lanes are flooded   AGAIN !!!

    Still its done now all showered fed and watered nice and warm...and smug day off tomorrow image 

    Fi am I right in remebering its you that got your 4.09 on a tough course ??


  • NN - I'm booked into Silverston HM in March.  If I can go sub 1:50 it's game on, otherwise....  well, let's not go there just yet.

    According to predictors, I should have run a fair bit quicker than 4:38... twice image

  • Hi all,

    Nice to see target times coming out early doors. I did VLM last year in 3.13.04 and manged a 1.24.40 half in Chester a couple of weeks later. Been injured pretty much since other than an 18.34 5k effort in June. I have managed to do some decent base building up to mid 40s through november though and am due to start P&D for london like so many others on Monday. I have took a relax week due to a cold this week and am hoping to get a mlsr on sunday and then into it. Havent settled into a target time yet and probably do a hybridd between upto 55 and 55 -75

    Tenjiso - If you have a 1.50 in the bag then endurance is your focus - but you know that alreadyimage 

  • Mennania - i don't have a 1:50 yet.  I was on course until I picked up a knee injury, so my best is just under 1:55.  Silverstone is my target for attempting a sub 1:50.

  • Menn I like the description HYBRIDD image that's what I shall do.. I wont be doing the doubles in the up to 70 miles but I know I can easily manage more than 55

    Ten I have a local half in March too...also a 20 mile race but will only do 14-15 at  intended race pace.

  • NN - no the 4:09 was at VLM in April. I managed 4:11 at the end of October on the tough course. I think that it probably reflects better and stronger running tho' even though the time wasn't quite so good so I'm hopeful of a better time especially with more miles.
  • NN - Yeh, it has one more d than a normal hyrbid too - thats whats makes it ddouble hardd image.

  • 4m recovery run this morning.  Looking forward to 12 miles easy road/trail tomorrow.  Weather forecast looks good.

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