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Base training backlash
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I am a total beginner and ignorant to boot. I only started running in April this year after a layoff of 50yrs-ish. (yes fifty) I do not know the meaning of terms like VO2max, lactic threshold, etc., although I do know the difference between aerobic and anaerobic exercise. I currently run 15mpw at 12m/m and I enjoy it. I have built up to that without the first of idea of "proper" training and without significant injury. It seems to me that the sensible way to go is to test your body and see what it can cope with comfortably then push it a bit harder but not too much, just build up gradually on pace and distance.
When I started I couldn't do much more than walk but now can run (plod) for an hour continuously. I seek advice and read all I can find but believe I have to temper it all with how it suits what my body can achieve. All you guys with your "scientific" methods seem to think you're discussing absolutes, except some seem to think they're absolutely right and others are absolutely wrong. I'm not trying to be offensive (far be it) but just to suggest that as we are all different (size, weight, age, sex, perception, will-power) we need to take on board those bits of the various methods and theories that actually suit us and that we must discover by experiment. The experimentation has to be sensible as does the training and so long as we continue to gradually increase our mileage and push the pace just that bit further, surely that is the absolute that works for all? I can see the value of doing speed work and of steady running but the point of running deliberately slow escapes me, it just doesn't seem logical. Obviously it gets in the miles but (not too comfortable) steady running does that and I would have thought more effectivley.
Now I've shot my ignorant mouth off there's a chance for everyone to say how wrong I am and what I should be doing in addition to keeping quiet and letting those who know what they're talking about get on with it without interruption.
_W
Base training to me is important but it should be carried out at a decent percentage of your lactate threshold say 80%, running slowly leads to form characteristics which can be difficult to eradicate later on. Running much slower than your "natural" pace can also lead to injuries (personal experience) and give an uneven balance to your training.
I would recommend that any base training is done according to how you want to improve and not how you are running at the time, super compensation is a well known and fully utilised technique and adding the elements of this to your training regime can bring benefits which cannot be achieved by other means.
I could go on but I think that this issue personal to each of our training regimes and we do what we think works for us.
I am currently base training but if I am still base training next summer then something will have terribly gone wrong!
I don't think I would want to run deliberately slowly either and that seems to be the problem with the prescribed bpm's, they appear to make people run too slow. The trick is how to get people to be able to run at a reasonable pace but stay under the threshold.
I started out at 10min/miles and got to 6:20 pace at the same HR (comfortable aerobic - approx. 10-15bpm below threshold). Much of the rate of improvement was due to lots of weight loss.
Now I did all this running at a MAX of 145bpm, so much of it was significantly less. And it felt fairly fast, but yet very comfortable - a lovely balance. I never had a problem feeling slow - it all felt pretty damn fast comparatively.
Retrospectively, as I sit here with a strained adductor brevis (no thanks to a crap physio), I realise that I was perhaps running TOO fast. The body had to adapt to the changes involved in going from 10m/m to 6:20 pace (average, so some downhill sections prob @5m/m!). In particular it hurts as I pick up pace while the leg is in the air (requires support their too, as well as point fo contact) - my speed increase came too quick (over just 3 months) for my body to handle. I had to start doing runs at 120bpm to give my body a chance to catch up with my CV system.
Now compare me, to a girl I was recently speaking to. She told me she was going to be tested for anaemia 'cos she was tired much of the time and even the easiest run felt hard.
I know nothing of her train but tell her she is doing 3 (or possibly) 4 runs a week, all of fairly high quality and none slow. Jackpot!
You see she was moderately fast, but it was mostly anaerobic fitness. What you can gain from anaerobic fitness is far more limited and she was starting to max out. Her aerobic fitness was also very underdeveloped, so every time she ran she was working anaerobically and never recovering. The girl needed a large dose of base training.
The trouble is that even what she percieved as "slow" running was barely aerobic. Also anaerobic comes quickly but also goes quickly too - so by working on base she would lose a LOT of speed. Easy to get back, but very soul destroying. For her base building would mean, from her perspective, unbelieveably slow plodding.
So if we were to both run at the same relative HR (LT - 10/15bpm), I would be "too fast" and she would be "too slow"!
Reminds me of the Mark Allen anecdote who when he was racing close to 5m/m pace in Triathlons was told he was "unfit" - he ran according to Phil MAffetone's 180 formula and could only manage 8m/m! VERY slow for him - especially as he was anaerobic-only in training! He NEVER ran slower than 5:30 pace!
Those of you with the latest edition of Noake's "Lore.." should read the Allen section - by the end of his career the same effort was giving him 5:20 pace!
To be continued...
The girl in my above example has a column that is more red than blue. Where does she go from there to improve? Faster reps? Work harder? She has almost maxed the limits of her anaerobic capacity and will only break herself down further.
The key to LONG TERM progress is to build that blue section to your column, year after year. If you are new to running or have never done much mileage then that can easily be built by plodding out a "steady" pace and increasing mileage. When that blue section gets bigger, you need to work right at the top of your aerobic range to raise what Gravy refers to as vLT (velocity @ Lactate Threshold) and build it bigger still.
Will anaerobic speed work make you faster quicker? Absolutely, but once you have done it, where do you go from there?
Can I ask over what time period you increased your pace from 10m/m to 6:20 m/m?
Just showed that to my wife - her laughing was heard 5 miles away...
"Let's chat about HR and LT training, darling..." "YAWN!!!"
'... oh yes he's okay, he's running again and has learn't about some new training fad. He'll be back at the physio sooner or later'.
Seriously though I do think you over simplify things by reducing them to the aerobic/anaerobic fitness - what about things like gains in running economy/muscle recruitment/neurological pathways not to mention Noakes' theories about changes in how our bodies store elastic energy etc. I know you are aware of all this having read around the subject - so don't you agree that it is possible that faster paced running may have benefits other than allowing finite gains in what you call anaerobic fitness? And this may account for why a lot of people do seem to lose speed after too long running relatively slowly and then fail to find it again by simply doing a few months of faster work ?
Also what distances are we talking about ? Would you say your theories apply down to say 5k ? Only I know a woman who is one of our top 1500m vets and I hoping to run cross country for England in her age group (I assume this is 4-5 miles - it may be less I suppose) and her training is nearly all eyeballs out stuff with one long run of an hour. Are you advocating base training purely for marathoners or is there a sliding scale whereby the base needed is less as the distance decreases?
Granted my red/blue columns were a gross simplification, but illustrated a valid point well. I'm into Pose running, so efficiency and elastic energy is very much in my mind. Perhaps better to view the column as "potential speed" thus allowing for form?
And indeed I agree with the "other benefits of faster paced running" which is why I have often referred to alactic speed work.
Yes, I would advocate a SIMILAR approach right down to 800/1500m.
I don't get much satisfaction out of my job these days as I've been doing it for 20 years, and I suppose keeping fit is effectively my hobby.
As I turned 40 earlier this year I wanted to re-visit my running PB's and hopefully rewrite them. To this end I bought the acknowledged literature and started to try and absorb it. Coincidentally, the BT thing kicked off on here and has added more grist for the mill.
I know it's not that important in the whole scheme of things, but I've found it interesting to know what's happening (or not) to my body. In my previous running incarantion I just went out and ran ... and then got injured.
My missus finds it completely uninteresting but I went out running with my 8 year old daughter yesterday for the fisrt, so I may have an ally at home in the coming years.
Ran every day from day one - started with 1mile(10mile week?) and built up to about 45min-1hr a day, plus 20-30min jog (70-80 mile week). Mileage increase as much to do with speed increase though...
Still haven't managed this base training every day yet at moment 4-5 days a week, did think of perhaps going out for a mile or so each day, then building up from there but didn't think i would get much benefit from running such a short distance
<<<Pammie waits with bated breathe for the response from her statement>>>
As you say, it wouldn't take much out of you and then you can build it up gradually as you feel comfortable.
20 mins running is better than no running at all.
Ditto - if it gives little beenfit then it can do little harm - get the body used to daily runs...
My 2p...