Teachers

Question for non teachers  

 

Do you support teachers going out on strike ?

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Comments

  • popsiderpopsider ✭✭✭

    They are as entitled as anyone else to use the means open to them to better their economic situation - if that means collective action then why not.  

  • There are a lot of people out of work who would love a job. Many people in the private sector have lost their jobs or had to take a pay cut and would love to have some work.

    I can appreciate the fact that teachers do a vital and very worthwhile job teaching the children of this country, our future society, but they must realise that as part of their job they have a responsibility to those children. Going on strike won't help a child's education.

    If they really are committed to their jobs they shouldn't go on strike. If you don't like the pay and conditions, get a job in the private sector. See how you like working for a company where your pay rise is based on the financial success of a company.

    This is not meant as an assault on public sector workers, as they do a vital job, but there are some professions where strike action is unnacceptable.

  • popsiderpopsider ✭✭✭

    Why differentiate between professions ?   Private sector strikes can damage the economy and have a knock on effect on health, education, etc etc.  

    I thought govts have been telling us academic achievement has been on an upward curve for decades anyway (obviously bollocks as anyone that has marked undergraduate work will tell you) - by that measure teachers should be earning the same as GPs by now!

  • Rickster wrote (see)

    There are a lot of people out of work who would love a job. Many people in the private sector have lost their jobs or had to take a pay cut and would love to have some work.

    How is this relevant to the question?

    I can appreciate the fact that teachers do a vital and very worthwhile job teaching the children of this country, our future society, but they must realise that as part of their job they have a responsibility to those children. Going on strike won't help a child's education.

    So this argument suggests that they should not be able to undertake industrial action (as is their right) under any circumstances.

    If they really are committed to their jobs they shouldn't go on strike. If you don't like the pay and conditions, get a job in the private sector. See how you like working for a company where your pay rise is based on the financial success of a company.

    Why would they, they're teachers. Their job isn't based on achieving financial success so why bring it up. If they feel the terms & conditions of their employment amount to a decrease in benefits then they're entitled to take industrial action.

    This is not meant as an assault on public sector workers, as they do a vital job, but there are some professions where strike action is unnacceptable.

    I'm not a teacher, and I work in the private sector, but it seems to me the government is just attempting to pit private sector against public sector in order to lower expectations. I.e. My pay's shit, why should anyone else's be better.

    My one gripe at teachers is the ballot turn out. They leave themselves open to claims that only a minority of teachers vote for action as overall turn out is less than 50%. I fail to understand why you would not vote for somethiong as important as going on strike.

  • MuttleyMuttley ✭✭✭

    That was a pretty standard turnout for an industrial action ballot. If you get 40 per cent you're doing well. The understanding in ballots is that those who don't vote are content to go with the majority. Beyond that, what Andy D said.

    It's not about private or public sector but about whether a profession or workplace is organized or not. Many of those that are not have seen major erosion of terms and conditions, pay and job security. Many of those that are organized, ie unionized, have suffered less and are doing more to resist it. As is their right.

  • Of course they should be able to go out on strike.
  • I personally don't think that strikes benefit anyone in the long term, whether they are teachers or any other profession.  However, the laws of this country allow it and they have as much right to strike as the next person.  Whether they chose to do so or not is up to them and not up to me.  I (and everyone else) just have to live with the consequences of it

    I haven't been following the issues that teachers have, and have little idea of what actually goes on within their profession so will refrain from commenting specifically on this issue.

  • I am a teacher so I better not comment (I did vote in the ballot though). I`m not sure that PRP would work in my area of education. No confidence in Gove.

  • Yes! But in principal only as I have no idea what the current dispute is about.

  • MuttleyMuttley ✭✭✭

    In principle.

    I blame the teachers ...

  • Muttley wrote (see)

    In principle.

    I blame the teachers ...


    Oh dear - guilty as charged and I can't even blame the teachers.

  • Of course they should be able to strike.

    This is part of the problem with working for a monopoly employer: it gives the employer way too much power. Teachers don't really have what I wish they did have, the choice of resigning and going and doing the same work but for someone else, so strike action is all they have left.

  • I am watching with interest teachers' attempts to resist performance related pay. I heard one of their union spokesmen on the wireless describing attempts to monitor their performance as "surveillance" and "big brother".  I don't think he'll get a lot of public sympathy from people in comparable graduate professions: the rest of us have to endure the annual nonsense of performance appraisals that bear no relation to how well we did our jobs. Why should teachers be exempt? The only thing we hate more than undergoing them is having to give them! I wish the teachers well, but don't hold out a lot of hope for them in escaping "performance appraisal".

  • I'd agree with MF's comments about performance appriasal, every one else has to go through it and some teachers must perform better than others.  reading through my son's secondary school report its fairly clear which teachers know and have engaged with him and which have written something generic and in one instance so wide of the mark that I doubt they'd be able to pick him out of a line-up. 

     

  • I agree they should be able to strike, why not. I would take issue with their reasons though, if we cannot monitor the performance of a Teacher we really are in trouble, we trust them with our most valuable assets, maybe they have had things very easy for too long, welcome to the real world.
  • EKGO, I think that is a very sweeping statement.  I believe that some teachers have had a very easy life - those who don't care about the kids and do the bare minimum (and I once lived with a teacher with that attitude and he had the cushiest job ever).  But there are others that work damn hard out of a feeling of responsibility towards the children.  It sounds like these teachers are not getting full recognition for their work

  • Performance monitoring is a necessity, working without it in a critical role is not really acceptable, and to my mind maybe it is long overdue. I can see why many would be wary.

    the first type of Teacher you mentioned needs rooting out and resolving, but if they are of the second type you mentioned then they have nothing to worry about.
  • It was the 'having things too easy for too long' bit that I didn't like.  It tends to imply that all teachers have an easy life.  Some do, some don't.

    But I agree that in theory PRP does improve productivity.  I haven't read up, and don't understand enough about how they propose to introduce it to teachers to be able to comment on this issue specifcally.  PRP when done badly is a waste of time and can be demotivating for the staff.

  • MuttleyMuttley ✭✭✭
    SuperCaz wrote (see)

    in theory PRP does improve productivity ... PRP when done badly is a waste of time and can be demotivating for the staff.

    In theory yes, to the managers reading whatever the latest guru from the US is spouting. But in practice it is wide open to abuse, cronyism and discriminatory application and it is really the thin end of a very large wedge. They tried it on in my workplace but fortunately we fought them off. Avoid at all costs.

  • On the other hand, look around your workplace and how do you see yourself? are you one of the upper performers, or one of the lower performers, if you're in the upper you have all to gain and nothing to fear
  • MuttleyMuttley ✭✭✭

    But it's not only about performance, Ekgo, and there's the rub.

  • Done well its about getting the right output and value, if you can provide the required, you're performing. I worked up to age 30 in a national industry and was paid the same as colleagues, regardless of effort, once I got away into private industry with PRP I never looked back, I found hard work was rewarded. Admittedly at first glance I was concerned but give me that opportunity any day. It s the way forward
  • Agreed.  When I was in the public sector I got the same increment as everybody else irrespective of whether I worked hard or not.  When I joined that department we were considered the scum of the earth, much like most people consider their IT or HR department (although I don't work in IT or HR).  When I left I had created an environment where people actally wanted to work with us rather than against us.

    My reward for that?  My pay was limited to the same as everybody elses but I was expected to take on more responsiblity that was outside my job description because I was good at it.  No chance of promotion as I had to wait for someone to die or retire before a post came available, and the unions then gave me a pay cut.

    In the private sector I got rewarded when I improved relations with out European sister companies and streamlined the work flow.

  • Supercaz to coin a bad phrase the cream rises to the top, why would we not want that for our schools.

  • Caz and EKGO, that's true, but I have equally often seen "performance appraisal" lead to the rewarding not of good performance but of those that the boss likes best, or who are most like the boss, or easiest to manage.

  • MuttleyMuttley ✭✭✭

    Mike's right. And PRP also disadvantages staff who have been on maternity or other such absences, or are part-time because of carer commitments etc. Those who gained under the system will of course defend it, but performance is often subjective and their assessment of their own worth may not be shared by others.

    PRP is also an initial step towards doing away with the annual pay round. In my workplace we upheld the existing system, which is the reverse of PRP in a way - your pay rises are stopped only if you're underperforming and are on a capability. But managers don't like capabilities because they need to be implemented competently. Easier to nominate your favourites for a rise.

    PRP looks good on paper but it opens a can of worms.

    Edit: adding - not sure how the unions can give you a pay cut, Supercaz, unless they were your employer.

  • From the points you raise, ask yourself the obvious question if someone is difficult to manage, does not work like the boss and the boss doesn't like them, why would they expect reward? clearly they cannot be doing the job well

  • MuttleyMuttley ✭✭✭

    Exactly. You prove my point. If the boss doesn't like you, why should you get a pay rise?

  • Muttley I see where you're coming from but if I had been off on leave (Maternity/Paternity etc) or worked part-time through whatever reason, I would be grateful for the safety net, but reasonably I don't hink I'd expect to be treated as well as someone who had spent the full year on the job.

     

     

  • Muttley wrote (see)

    Exactly. You prove my point. If the boss doesn't like you, why should you get a pay rise?

    Shouldn't you ask why? making relationships work in work is an essential part of productivity, and is a nmeasureable performance stat. You don't need to be best mates with everyone to work well in a professional environment

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