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P&D Spring Marathon Training Thread
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My long runs are usually around the 7min/mi mark...which is the 10-20% range for me...but does feel "hard but comfortable". I mean that they shouldn't just be a really slow jog. The recovery runs on the other hand should be.
literatin - just got it - you're a star, thank you!
Spreadsheets look like work, right?!
Noob question alert....
I've not attempted P&D before, so am feeling a bit thick about some of the terms - I understand LT runs to be similar to 'tempo' runs in other training language, but I'm not sure where I should be putting the faster miles - I have conventionally done a mile or two warm up, however many HMP/10K pace miles I am meant to do, then a couple of miles to cool down, but I'm sort of hearing the message that the end of the run should be the hardest for building up stamina, am I right about any of this?!
And if I am doing warm-up/cool down miles, do I need to be increasing/decreasing as I go or is it ok to do a couple of easy pace miles, then the faster bit, then drop back again, or should I be building then sustaining effort a bit more? I know there is a lot of explanation in the book as to why we do things, but I seem to have missed most of the 'how'!
Actually I lie - just looked at my stats and ave is probably between 7 and 7.30.
madbee - I usually do as you say. Depending on subscribed length - a few miles warm up, the fast bit, and then a mile or two warm down. For the warming up, cooling down bit I usually slowly build up the pace in the warming up bit, but for cooling down I often slow down rapidly cause I'm so knackered. It's probably good to actually mix it up a bit, try different things etc. If feels tough and out your comfort zone is probably a good thing. The most important bit is the fast bit though...the warming up and cooling down mainly just helps with recovery and prevent injury.
Hi madbee... I'm not sure where you're getting the message to run super hard right to the end from. It can surely never be a good thing to finish a training run on something super intense. Always best to have a slow mile or two to warm down.
I got a bit confused by the 'fast finish' mp runs but took the view as above that it cannot be sensible to just stop having run 10 miles hard. When I did 14m with 8 at mp I did 4 warm up, then the 8 then two very easy recovery.
If I am doing MP work in an lsr I leave it until the end bar 1 mile cool down, you are trying to simulate MP on fatifued legs so doing it too early isnt ideal, but just getting out there and doing an MP session is tough enough
Hi all!
I'm doing 18/70 with the aim of ~3 hours at London. I had a 5M tempo today - I completely bottled it. Just blew up halfway through. All my other running's been going great, but I remember 4 months ago (on lower mileage), that I'd be able to easily hit the paces I was aiming for today (6:25 ish) on a tempo.
Has this happened to anyone else? Maybe a function of 70 miles a week (I stuck in a few extra runs to the schedule) relatively slowly...
Thanks guys, that's pretty much what common sense was telling me! I just wondered if I was being lazy slowing down the last two miles as much as I usually do, when I'm intending to build stamina and sustain pace in the long term - I guess this is why the MP sessions later on are there. And why they don't appear at the beginning...
PS Mennania, I think what you are saying is what I was imagining I was hearing about LT runs. Thanks for clarifying things in my head there that the MP work is a different animal from an LT run!
What a start to the training week! Another torrential downpour started five minutes before I was about to head out
, but I was lucky that I could wait it out for a while. I didn't want to do another LT session on the treadmill, even though it would probably have been a sensible idea. It's days like today that we (eventually) look back on with some pride. An hour later there was a break in the weather, so off I went.
The scheduled run was: 9m with 5m @ LT pace. My LT pace is 8:24 @ half-marathon pace, though I normally aim for 15K pace which is 7:56. Last time outdoors I ran 4m LT @ 7:59, but in much better conditions. I was only a few seconds off 15K pace in the first mile, but soon afterwards had flooded roads and gusty headwinds to contend with. The Police had closed the roads to traffic, which at least meant I wouldn't have to deal with any tidal waves caused by ignorant drivers like last year! They advised me that I would get wet (no shit, Sherlock) but that the water was only between ankle and knee deep. I managed to stick to the shallower depth and avoid any potholes, but it was very tiring for an LT run. Being an out-and-back route, I had the joy a second time – much to the amusement of the constabulary.
So, that's my excuse why my pace was nearer to my HM pace and some fifteen (!) seconds slower than I would have liked. My heart rate readings show I wasn't just being idle.
Target pace: 7:56 (15k) to 8:24 (HM) Target Heart Rate: 151bpm – 165bpm
Warm up 2m @ 10:15 average pace
Threshold 5m @ 8:15 average pace (avg. H/R 163bpm → 86% HRR; Peak 170bpm → 92% HRR)
Cool Down 2m @ 9:37 average pace
I hope conditions improve considerably in time for the weekend marathon pace run!
15miles at lunchtime to wipe away those post holiday blues. Was going quite well and was enjoying the cooler temperatures and muddy trails, then it started pouring it down and I instantly wished I was back in Lanzarote. Oh well. Done in 1hr45.
It's a tough session, Ten! Well done getting it out of the way. Don't worry too much about pace. You worked in the right HR zone so the training benefit is all there. My pace usually drops when I start proper marathon training. A few weeks down the line the pace to HR ratio will look very different
11.2 miles done this morning. No rain, but windy. Still, I take much prefer a mild winter to the horrid cold one last year!
That sounds like hard work Tenjiso... Well done for toughing it out, and thank you for posting your splits there - another post that helpfully answered my question!
15W, don't blame you - nice not being too hot, but being not too hot and soaked to the skin is grim.
There are some speedy folk around here... Is this as a result of P&D, or did you all start as naturally talented runners?!
Tenjiso - 'The Police had closed the roads to traffic' - you mean, they've reformed again?! You win the top celebrity spot for a run today
Tenjiso, 15West, chickadeee - that's good running today, despite conditions. 12 miles later for me and the weather should be fine.
Well done Tenjiso. I only did 4 miles @ LT because I'm a lazy cow.
Same session as Ten, but with only minor puddles and mud on the tow-path to contend with...
I too only had puddles on towpaths, but did have to slow down a couple of times to negotiate the dri-ish bits without falling in the river!
I managed to fit mine in between torrential rain. so got lucky!
Impressive stuff Ten, Dr Dan, Rachel and Chick.
Oh, and Lit.
Madbee - I was never a talented runner, or any good at any particular sport really. I've always tried though...and have worked pretty hard using P&D for my last 3 marathons which has got me from 3hr13 up to the heady heights of 2hr49. I do think though that may be as fast as I can possibly go unless I lose loads of weight, grow longer legs, a stronger engine, age -20 years, and am able to run 100mi+/wk.
Hi all!
I'm doing 18/70 with the aim of ~3 hours at London. I had a 5M tempo today - I completely bottled it. Just blew up halfway through. All my other running's been going great, but I remember 4 months ago (on lower mileage), that I'd be able to easily hit the paces I was aiming for today (6:25 ish) on a tempo.
Has this happened to anyone else? Maybe a function of 70 miles a week (I stuck in a few extra runs to the schedule) relatively slowly...
Good effort Tenjiso.
One observation... nearly 30s per mile difference between 15K and HM paces looks excessive. If those are based on real race times, then it looks like you should skew your training a bit more to the slow endurance side of things. I think.
Good point NN - I hadn't spotted that but the McMillan prediction for 15k pace based on a HMP of 8:24 is 8:12. I'm imagining it's more likely Tenjiso has raced a half marathon than a 15k, which you don't get many of in the UK?
Listening to the Pfitzinger interview at moment, interesting he says that max long run time should be 3.5 hours.
Other than odd trail type races, does a 15k road race exist anywhere? I suppose it would be easier to just read it as 10 mile pace, which is what a lot of people truly take as LT pace.
It says in the book quicker runners should do these at hmp and slower runners at 15kp. Does it state the dividing line in terms of ability for this?
They have them in America, I think, DT. And I would imagine none of us on here count as 'quicker' runners.
15w- is that regardless of ability? Its seems then that quicker runners would get to practice running the time they would be out in the marathon whilst slower runners would not even get the 20 miles in.
LT runs: A warm up at fairly constant GA pace, then the LT miles, then another easy-ish GA cool down.
Today I had 9mi w/ 5mi LT, so
2mi @ 7:51
5.2mi @ 6:02
2mi @ 7:43
Marathon pace element long runs:
18mi w/ 10MP: I'll run 8mi at MP+20%, then 10mi @ MP. If I wanted a cool down I'd add it on as extra at the end.
Generally I just walk up and down foaming at the mouth and planning what I'm going to scoff when I get inside.
I'm never going to be a "quicker runner". 12 miles in the pissing rain and howling wind for me this morning. Legs felt like lead, HR up a bit...I'm either viral or still knackered from Saturday's long run....still, a nice LT run to look forward to tomorrow morning
yer maj - I know you've had to rejig the schedule a bit, but is there any scope for further adjustments so you get to keep the rest day the day before the LT run? Might make it less horrific.