Hard Marathon Training with Mike Gratton

Hilly

Sorry to sound stupid, but I'm quite new to using a heart rate monitor in training/racing and don't yet fully understand it!:o)


Why once in the right zone is it hard to get it higher and how do you know it's it the right zone?

[Deleted User]

I know I'm running at the right pace through experience of the course, how I feel and how others around me are running. I then check the HRM more out of interest than anything.

So when I'm at (say) 6k of a 10k, I know the only way I can push it over 190 is by taking my body to a level unsustainable for 4k. In the last 1k I can get it over 190 but only for a limited period knowing it is the end of the race.

It's just hard to get it higher because if you did you'd be running too fast for the race, and blow up at some point.

Hilly

Thanks BR, I beginning to understand:o)


I didn't actually check my hr while racing. In fact I didn't look at my watch today until the finish, which is unusual. I think it was because I was actually racing another person for a good 7 miles and was going more by how I felt.

Hilly

Read I as I'm.

Tigger's mate Roo

Another way to use the info about your HR from this race is to use the knowledge that you could keep it to the level you did very evenly for the 10 mls. As training improves your pace for that HR should get faster, and maybe you will get to be able to sustain a higher HR for 10ml, but in your next 10 ml race you could make sure it doesn't go over that rate for say the first half ie that you don't start too fast for the distance, but equally you'd feel confident that you could sustain the pace. This would be much better than worry about the mile pace (esp if the mile markers might be out, or hills or wind etc affect the race)

Hilly

Thanks TmR. I ran at 80% of WHR yesterday. I finished with more in the tank too yesterday, due to not racing the other girl to the line, which is what I would normally do and then feel sick!

Mike Gratton 2

Hi Hilly, You HR indicates that you made an even effort through the race - if you pushed the hills hard and your HR went up significantly you may not recover so in terms of getting the best time in the most efficient way what you did was correct. There is a case for pushing hills where you use them tactically to beat people in a head to head race, but it doesn't usually result in a fast time. If you ran at 80% then there is much more to come as you should be able to run at 85% more or less comfortably over this distance. You may not be able to reach 85% or above right now because of fatigue from high levels of training and lack of specific speed work at this moment, but once you are adapted to the training and taper for races then I would think you will see a big jump in your racing speed.

[Deleted User]

HI Mike,

I'm currently running between 50 - 55 miles a week and my long runs are around 18 miles, building up to 20 starting this sunday coming (16th). I'm skiing mid feb which means I miss two long runs and have a half marathon a week after I get back. I'm worried about the effects this will have on my training. My schedule looks like this (mid week runs to get longer up to 15 miles and long runs up to 23 miles:

Mon:easy 4 - 5 miles
Tuesday - 8 miles steady
Wednesday 11-13 miles marathon or slower pace
Thursday: track session or tempo - 6-8 miles (if track normally 800s or 1600s at 10k pace)
Fri: Rest
Sat: 6 miles - fartlek or hill training
Sun: Long slow 20 miles

Every sunday up to 6 Feb will be a long run of 20 miles (so 3 x 20 mile runs). 6 feb is a half marathon race, 13 Feb back up to 20 miles, 20 and 27 feb skiing, march 6 half marathon race, then March 13, 20, 27 will be 20+ miles.

I doubt very much (from experience of last holiday) whether I will get to run whilst skiing, the resort is on a steep hillside and we normally ski from first to last light. We will be going from sat 19 to sun 27th so 8 days away.

How can I maximise my training the weeks before I go skiing and the week when I get back (bearing in mind I have a half marathon that week) to ensure I dont lose my fitness and that I am ready for a half marathon (which I normally use as a benchmark for how my training is progressing). Should I try and fit in at least 1 x 23 mile run before I go away? What effect will not running for 8 days have on my fitness. Any advice would be much appreciated. Thanks.

Mike Gratton 2

Hi Tricks,

I wouldn't make any changes to your schedule in the week before or after the skiing. The trouble with trying to cram training in to make up for a gap is that you put yourself in danger of injury. Skiing is good cardio vascular training, particularly as you will be at high altitudes, so you won't miss much fitness just need to re-educate your muscles to the action of running afterwards. You have plenty of long runs and the structure of your week looks pretty good. You have two fairly hard days back to back on Wed & Thur, but I think you will be OK as you follow it with a rest day.

[Deleted User]

Hi Mike

Have been reading the thread with intrest but have not posted as I am having time spent building up the miles again to get me back to where I was before Cardiff marathon.

I am aiming to do Amsterdam in Oct and even though it's pretty far off I am starting now as I would like to race some halfs in the lead up and then I can evaluate how the training is going and if not as expected I then have some time to change things a little.

I start a new job come 1st feb which will give me plenty of time to have to train, I will have about 3-4hrs to play with before work and would like to use the early mornings to my advantage ( and I'm an extreamly early morning person when it come to train ) so I feel this will be good for me.

What I will be able to do more now than before is have time to construct and train consistantly and wondering what advice you may be able to give on the following if possible:

7 day schedule
14 day schedule
21 day schedule

Looks like from your weeks you do a 7 day training schedule, would just like to know if the 14 or 21 would offer anything more?

I have always tried to cram everything thing into 7 days in the past and have done 12hr + night shifts for the past 4 years which has made training extreamly difficult.

My new hrs will be a godsend to be honest and I feel with the right build up and some good direction 90-100mpw should not be a problem.

Thanks in advance

Speedie

Mike Gratton 2

Hi Speedie,

Sounds like life will change for the better. I think it doesn't really mater what sort of rotation you do as long as you take a long term view of your training needs. If you're not aiming at racing a marathon until October you can effectively do the same training over a long period of time as conditioning and just alter it a bit in the lead in to any more short term targets.

I suggest you try to establish the following components into a general 7 or 14 day cycle as a basic training regime. About 4 or 5 weeks out before a short term target race change the speed work to 5km pace with longer recoverys to sharpen up, then jump back into the general programme afterwards. If you can keep it going through to August you can then start to adjust your training to come to a peak for Amsterdam.

Main components:

2 hr + run
90 min run
several 1 hr runs
Tempo Run (half marathon pace)
Rep session at 10km pace(6 x 1 mile/4 mins recovery)
Interval session at 5 to 10km pace (15 to 20 x 400/100m jog recovery)

These are key hard sessions so you can build in recovery runs around them.

[Deleted User]

Thanks in the very quick response Mike.

[Deleted User]

Thanks Mike, you've put my mind at rest. I was having a little panic earlier, but I feel comfortable after your advice. Now I just have to make sure that I dont get injured! I'm also relieved to know my training schedule looks ok. My mileage will probably peak at 62 miles in the last 6 weeks which hopefully will be enough to help me hit the 3.00 mark (or just under).

Hilly

Thanks Mike. I have to admit to feeling rather surprised that I'm able to race so well with all the miles in my legs at the moment. Even though I'm working hard to improve it's still hard to believe I'll get faster. It feels strange to beat or be near people in races who normally I wouldn't too!

Miles 3&4 of the race were run at 85%, but they were on a really long hill where I was really trying to keep the same speed (it didn't work) as on the flat. I then realised if I was to do this on the other hills it might take too much out of me. I'm still kicking myself for not staying with the little group and the 2nd lady in the last 400m!!

Hilly

wouldn't be not wouldn't too!

Hilly

I understand Paula is running FLM again this year. That makes it even more exciting to do, well for me it does!

Paolini

Hilly - thanks for recommending this thread; interesting and useful reading!

Hilly

Morning.

No problem Porcus!

I've juggled round my sessions and have managed to fit in my 20 miler today after work so as not to miss this weeks long run. I won't do a mid-week long run and the hill session on Thursday I've had to move to Friday, but hopefully that shouldn't make any difference. So fingers crossed it all fits together:o)

[Deleted User]

Hi Mike, Trouty again with my latest injury update. I have gone to the gym every day this year and have managed 1.5 miles on the treadmill (just to judge the discomfort level, today I managed to get up to about 7:40 pace before I had to slow it down again). I have found that the rowing machine and the cycles are the best for me as they don't cause any pain to the injured area, I have gradually increased the time on both bits of kit up to 30 mins on the rower and then 1 hour on the cycle, in the hope that this may replicate a longer run, and today worked a a higher intensity but for a shorter time to try and replicate a tempo run. With the cycle I use the hr monitor and usually work at the fat burn level 114 and for the tempo I pushed it to the cardio level of 140. I would love to get back out on the roads again , but the progress I am getting with the injury is slow. Do you think I should continue as I am or cut back again in the hope that the injury will recover quicker? It's a bit of a catch 22 really!!
To hilly : well done with your race a cracking effort, keep it going.
Trouty

Mike Gratton 2

Hi Trouty, If you're not getting pain from cycling and rowing then continue them as much as you can. Rather than test the injury by running as hard as you can on the treadmill I think it would be better to keep at a slow speed if it is comfortable (no pain) and gradually build the duration rather than the pace.

[Deleted User]

Thanks for the advice Mike, but to follow on from that should I increase the mileage on the treadmill until it is painful and then back off or just be patient and try and get the mileage in with nil discomfort. I know this may sound common sense to you, and it probaby is, but this injury is taking a lot longer to clear up than I originally thought it would. I have now not run properly since my last race on 12th December. Your help and advice is really appreciated and I am sure that goes for the rest of the forumites.

Mike Gratton 2

I would play on the side of caution, so maybe add about 5 mins a time until you feel that it is about as much as you can take then keep it there for a while before moving on again - it is a real 'feel' thing which only you can judge.

[Deleted User]

Thanks again, I shall try and keep patient and hopefully I will be able to get back to some proper training, and maybe even a couple of races before London.

Hilly

Good luck trouty, hope the injury heals soon! I had an injury when training for Cardiff which was really frustrating at the beginning. I did lots of cycling to begin with and then when it allowed me to run on it I did so on soft surfaces-off road and the treadmill. Once I could I soon built up the miles and with Mike's guidance still got what I wanted from the marathon, so fingers crossed for you!

Tigger's mate Roo

Mike, a question about hard sessions in bad weather. How bad did the weather have to be before you would quit a track session ?

It was really windy tonight, and my pace was very erratic, and about 4-10 secs/lap slower than I would have anticipated. Also I couldn't get my heart rate up as I normally do; I think it went down every time a gust of wind slowed my stride. Part of this may have been due to tiredness in my legs from 2 weeks of over 90 miles, but mainly the wind. At what point would you have said its no point continuing, or would you have carried on, on the grounds that it will still have the strengthening and training effect (which is what I did this evening)?

Mike Gratton 2

Looking at my diary Tiggers Mate, the only thing that stopped speed work was heavy snow - still did track in wind and rain. Running against the wind is good strengthening work, and of course some of it will be with the wind behind. The most important thing is not to stand around on recoveries but to jog and also to keep legs warm - we had Ron Hill Tracksters in those days, but running tights would be better now as less restrictive.

Mike Gratton 2

One bit of news for insomniacs. I have been asked to do a weekly training slot on Radio 5 midnight slot on Sundays. Will be giving training plans for different speeds and helping the presenter Will Grant train for 2.45 at FLM - Will was a very good junior and is capable of doing it. I think the schedules will go on BBC website as well. More Info later.

[Deleted User]

Sounds great Mike, shame though I have been doing Nightshift ( inc Sundays ) for the last four years and about to leave in a couple of weeks and we always have the radio on - still midnight is not that late.

Mike would like to ask a question on high mileage -

Have been able to get the miles in the last couple of weeks and probably the most I have ever done and even more so when I start my new job in a few weeks time, my aim was to get some good mileage throughout end of December and all through January.

All my runs have been at an easy pace 8-8:20 m/m not fussed with time at the moment, have managed doubles as well which I feel is making the legs feel fresher rather than doing it all in one go, with the easy pace and high mileage could this still prove recipe for injury?

I suppose you may reply with it depends on the individuls ability, and if they have the endurance in them before starting out on high mileage.

I had a very hectic few months completing the UK Half Ironman on 22nd August, 2 weeks later ran the Thannet Marathon (pb) 4 weeks later Cardiff Marthon (pb) and 5 weeks later Monaco Marathon (HELL) so I feel I have alot in me training wise to push the mileage but just wondering if lots of easy miles is ok at this stage or should I ease off - probably looking around 80 miles this week.

Thanks again

[Deleted User]

Hi Mike (or anyone)

How do you manage to eat enough to support these huge training schedules?

For FLM05, I've increased my weekly mileage from about 30mpw this time last year to 70-90mpw and have started losing weight as a result.

I've been a steady 64-66kg for the last 25 years, but have recently dropped to nearly 60kg. At 5'10", I'm skinny enough already and don't really want to lose any weight!

I eat constantly - three big meals plus snacks throughout the day. I don't think I could physically eat any more.

Should I replace all the healthy food with chips/chocolate/beer or is there a better way?

Mike Gratton 2

Hi Speedie, As you already suppose, how much you can handle is fairly personal and can be dependant of running style/efficiency as well pace and back ground. If you are keeping the pace down, then provided you are biomechanically sound you should be OK on the mileage - once it is established you need to start to introduce a few Tempo runs to counter balance the long slow stuff...that will eventually become interval work to develpp your leg speed. It is all suck-it-and-see stuff though.

FishAreBest, you can recon on using about 100 cals per mile of running, give or take a bit. So, you should increase your cal. intake by this amount to maintain equilibrium - you are running around 10 miles per day, therefore you need to increase your intake by around 1000 cals. - quite a serious amount of food. I would suggest that you take this mostly as carbohydrate - good carbs, like pasta,rice, potatoes rather than crisps, chocolate and beer - although I must admit to taking a fair amount of cals. through chocolate and beer when I was on big miles. Once you get to this level of training you become an eating machine...