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Hard Marathon Training with Mike Gratton

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    FAB - I'm jealous! As i said somewhere around here, men seem to loose weight really easily when they increase mileage, but even on increasing miles, 70- 90 mile weeks and very little in the way of cakes, biscuits chocolate, hardlyu any alchohol, no crisps etc etc scarely 1lb lost in several months!
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    TmR - I guess my "problem" is that I don't actually like chocolate, cake, biscuits, ice-cream, fatty food, etc.

    Conveniently(!), I really do like heathly food, such as fruit, veg, pasta, rice, etc. which is all very bulky; there is only so much of it that you can force down :-(

    I'm already spending almost every waking hour eating. Maybe I need to get up in the middle of the night for an extra meal! :-)

    As Mike said - "you become an eating machine", and eating is becoming almost more of an effort than running!
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    TmR, I am in the same boat as you. I try and eat healthily and lose precisely nothing, apart from when I gave up sugar in my tea (and I've now substituted those cals for something else)when I lost about 1lb. It's so unfair. And I put on a whole kilo by drinking on NY eve and then hangover munchies the next day. It took me all week to lose it!!!!!!

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    Thanks Mike

    I love food, and I eat loads, try and be as heathly as possible but not always easy, especially when out with friends.

    I can normally eat a large deep pan pizza from Pizza Hut by the time my other half has eaten a small, and still want more an hour or so later.

    Im trying different eating times at the moment to see if that helps with running, I'm someone who can't really eat 3hrs before running because it repeats on me big time.

    I am also experimenting with small snacks before hand and during running.

    I have found the nutrition side of training the hardest to learn and master.
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    ...and I run so much better when I'm about 10-14lbs lighter than now, but when I try to cut down I don't have the energy to run as hard as I want to (glycogen depletion), so I, like Speedie, but in reverse (!) find the nutrition side of traiining the hardesr to master.

    Do those of you who need to keep weight up use energy drinks and protein drinks for refueling ?
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    HillyHilly ✭✭✭
    I've lost a few pounds since this block of training, nothing much, but I'm noticing and so are others that my trousers are baggy in the bum and loose around my waist. Yet I don't seem to feel much lighter than I was.

    I've changed my diet slightly this time by cutting out chocolate, crisps, foods with high fat content, but I'm still eating plenty, but better foods. I don't really like jacket potatoes, preferring a pizza any day, but I'm learning to eat them and not the pizza-unless I've raced then I treat myself:o)

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    HillyHilly ✭✭✭
    Mike, there's a lot of 20 mile races taking place on 6th March. I'm doing one and I know many others are too. Can I ask if these 20 miles should be raced at 20 mile pace or done at marathon pace? I'm not sure what 20 mile pace is, but I guess it would be faster than marathon pace:o)
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    I envy you, FaB - I can run 100+mpw and still put weight on easily - eating has never been a problem for me (esp. crap food). I have been holding 140mpw and struggling to lose weight! :-S
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    Or indeed, to extend hilly's question, should they be done at all?

    How long would 20 miles @ marathon pace take to recover from fully?
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    I am interested in the answer to barnsley runner's question. I have ruled out a 20 miler because I'm too competitive to run it as a training run and I'm unsure about the recovery period.
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    On the food issue - I think most people eventually level out on their weight, particularly since some muscle gain offsets the fat loss - if you keep losing weight it may be a problem as body needs to maintain some fat for general health.

    The question of the 20 miles is tricky - it should be at marathon pace if it is to mean anything other than just another long run - but as BR says, there is a risk involved in that you don't recover properly as it is almost as demanding as the marathon itself.

    I did the Intercounties 20 miles about 5 weeks before LM in 1982 - won it in 1.42 and did almost identical time at 20 mile split in the LM on the way to 2.12.30. However didn't do one in 83 - longest race was a 28km in Rome faster than marathon speed 3 weeks before - but I was at another level by then and my racing seemed to come easy with PBs all over the place.
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    So would there be more benefit in doing a normal long run and then 2 or 3 decent sessions during the following week, rather than a 20 mile run at M-pace which will still leave you stiff, depleted and muscle damaged for at least a week?

    People talk about the 'psychological' confidence that can be gained from racing a 20 miler, but if you are an experienced marathon runner, you would assume the ability to run 20 miles at x pace if you're planning to run 26.2 miles at that pace 5 weeks later.
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    I think it is a good stepping stone for beginners if taken steady, and as a test for experienced runners wanting to experiment with a faster pace before trying it in the full marathon - as I did in 82. It was common place for top athletes to do a fast 20 mile race in a build up, but few elite runners would do it now. On balance I would say do it if you feel you need the confidence boost - if not then maybe a 25km race is better as you can run that hard but won't fully deplete and should recover better while that bit more than a half it helps in getting your body used to pushing hard for a longer period of time.

    I don't have my 82 training diary with me, but I know my Intercounties win was after a 100 mile week, but I'm not sure if i had to miss speed work the week after.

    On thing I did experiment with - and will come up in my training log postining in March was to do a 22 mile steady in the morning, then in the afternoon went to the Cambridge Harriers Rd Relays (about 3.5 miles) and ran fastest leg ahead of Gary Huckwell (15.30 to 15.43) who had beaten me by winning the Kent XC in Jan and was a GB XC International at the time. The day before that I had run 11 miles in the moring including 4 x 1 mile at 4.35 pace, and 7 miles steady XC in the afternoon (121 mile week that week).
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    Mike, I would be interested as to your opinions about the cross training that you've suggested, because I have a slight concern. today I managed just short of 3 miles on the treadmill in 25 mins ( only a slight discomfort feel with the injury), I then went on the rower and completed 8000m in 35 mins (this was very hard work, mainly the pain in the bum that I get after about 15 mins), from this I went on the cycle to do 1 hour at fat burn level of 114 for the hr. I managed to do 35k in the hour but I struggled to keep the hr up at the level it suggests, and even though I drank about 1-1.5L of water during the 2 hours training I stopped sweating after about 55 mins on the cycle and the machine could not detect a hr due to my hands being dry (I think!!!). Whay I am concerned about is the effort it took to get the hr up and also the possible dehydration, because although the exercise was hard it never got to the "Eyeballs Out Stage". If anyone else has any experience in the gym a response would be appreciated. Thanks a lot trouty.
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    Thats 2 hrs of of fairly hard exercise trouty - I think you may need to break it down and only do maybe 2 activities per day - better still - when you do the running make that the only exercise in the session then you will get better feed back on how this element is going.
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    HillyHilly ✭✭✭
    I take on board everything that's been said about doing a 20 miles race before a marathon. However, if I do a mini carbo load and refuel during the race and straight after then surely the depletion isn't going to be as bad as doing a full marathon where the final 6 miles is the real depletion stage?

    I've done a 20 miler for the last 2 years and recovery wasn't too long. Although what I'm not sure about is whether my marathon would've be quicker if I hadn't raced the 20 miles.

    I think I'll be doing the 20 miles because it's a County League race and I'm trying to complete all the series this year. I don't particularly want to place high, but I do want to take part, so maybe I could/should try to run within myself.

    If I had to take a week of easy recovery runs or even a couple of days off would this be detrimental to all the training or the final phase of training before the marathon, bearing in mind there will be 6 weeks remaining?

    Thanks!
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    We had this exact same discussion down at the club tonight, about 20 mile races. The consensus was the fitter you are the quicker you can recover from them, but that people seem to have run their best marathon times when they have used the 20 milers as training runs, not flat out races.
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    Trouty - I have used the gym quite a lot recently and last year when getting over a broken ankle and cant get my heart rate up sufficiently altho' nearly killing myself! I think it is the heat of the gym which makes you think you are working so hard - also cycling & rowing are not your favoured sports so you find them harder than cyclist/rower would do. Have you tried the x-trainer, if injury allows? You should check with your physio what will/will not affect injured area. Sometimes you think something might aggravate it, but it doesnt. I swear by x-trainer which simulates running. I have spent hours in last 2 weeks on this doing interval sessions and feel like I've done hard work outs. 60mins on intervals of 2 mins followed by 1 hr steady. I'm drained by end of it. I was told to run 2x yesterday to losen off treatment & after initial discomfort felt almost fine. So off now for 6 miles to see if recovery still ok. Also my club mate was out for 8months and maintained her fitness in gym, much of it doing boxercise classes & rowing.She has just run fastest 10k time in UK for 2004 of 32.30
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    This is a consolidation week, the only change is an increase in the number of hill reps by 2.

    HARD TRAINING (once a day – sessions to be missed in brackets).

    Sun 9 Jan: am: 2 to 2 .30 steady, pm (30 mins easy)
    Mon 10 Jan: am (30-40 mins steady), pm 1 hr steady
    Tue 11 Jan: am (30-40 mins steady), pm 30 mins Tempo run (85% MaxHR – 15 mins warm up/cool down)
    Wed 12 Jan: am (30-40 mins steady) pm 1 hr 30 mins steady.
    Thu 13 Jan: am (30-40 mins steady), pm 14 x 2 mins up moderately steep hill, jog back recovery - long warm up/down.
    Fri 14 Jan: am (30-40 min steady), pm <1 hr easy.
    Sat 15 Jan: am (30-40 mins steady), pm < 1 hr steady.

    MIKES 1983 SCHEDULE
    Sun: am 20 miles, pm 5 miles
    Mon: am 5 miles easy, pm 10 miles Tempo – 5 min/mile after warm up 10mins.(strong winds)
    Tue: am 8 miles rd & XC, pm fast/steady, pm 11 miles fairly quick (feeling tired – cold & windy)
    Wed: am 4 miles, pm 15 miles (very cold & windy)
    Thu: am 4 miles, pm 10 miles fartlek – 6 efforts of approx. 1km to 1 mile @ sub 5 min/mile pace – 2 to 3 mins recovery.
    Fri: am 4 miles, pm 10 miles hilly road.
    Sat: am 12 miles XC, pm 7 miles fartlek road with 10 efforts of approx 200 to 400m
    (Total for week approx. 125 miles)
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    (This thread is magic. You guys make it sound so easy. I go green with jealousy and want to do it myself. So we write off the disappointments and plan next week...)
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    HillyHilly ✭✭✭
    Stickless, it's not easy-honest!!! Keep up the spirit, I know you're trying hard and you will succeed!:o)

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    HillyHilly ✭✭✭
    Mike, I wasn't able to manage the hill session or any speed actually as I've got either a small calf tear (won't know until I see physio next Friday) or a return problem with Compartment syndrome. I can run on it no problem and did 10.5 at a good steady pace this evening. I'm a bit worried though that doing the harder speed/hills at the moment might make the problem worse. I don't want to take days off, so will keep the pace slower than ususal. Will I lose anything by not doing the harder sessions for a week or 2?
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    Hilly, yes, I know, what I said came out all wrong. I did indeed read your thread and for the year before that followed your training, so you do not actually have to remind me that easy it most certainly was Not.

    Still, having miserably failed to get round 6 miles this morning, crawled home with tail between legs, it is a tonic in itself to come hear and read these schedules, and say right, time to get on with it!
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    ah, Mike! so you did at least notice when it was cold and windy, and occasionaly you were tired. Your comments from your diary are enlightening, that you didn't feel great all the time.
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    HillyHilly ✭✭✭
    Stickless, I can't imagine how much effort some days are for you, but you're 'true grit'!:o)

    TmR-it makes Mike's schedule look a bit more 'normal' with those entries. I've got plenty like that in my diary:o)
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    yes, Hilly, thats exactly what I meant.
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    HillyHilly ✭✭✭
    I know that's what you meant:o)

    Did the 8 miles this morning on the treadmill to see what my calf was like. It's still tight, but I think the self massage is keeping it at the same state. Hopefully, this will allow me to keep training until physio.
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    Hi Hilly, at this stage you won't lose anything as you have so much back ground now - as always, stay on the side of caution until you see the physio.

    I can assure you all there were plenty of tired days, but some how when you come to make the effort on your run it is always there.
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    HillyHilly ✭✭✭
    Thanks Mike. My calves do seem to be a real weakness for me and I do everything I can to them to help prevent injury-stretches, massage, proper warm-up and cool downs. On visits to the physio she tells me it's to do with the way I run, but I can't afford the time or money to have personal training to change my running style. I'll just have to keep doing what I'm doing and put up with the odd bout of injury:o)

    I'm glad you mention you had plenty of tired runs because some days are a real struggle, but I agree that once running most often than not the effort is there.
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    It's interesting that it's always your calves that give you problems, Hilly. With me, it changes from year to year. At the moment it's my right knee that's giving me niggles, but in the past it's been everything from my lower back to my achilles, plantar faciitis to shin splints. But luckily only one bout of proper injury resulting in weeks off from running back in 2002.
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