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Shades Marathon Training
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I had an unplanned rest day again yesterday. I say "unplanned" - it's not that I have a plan as such, but rather than forcing it I have a day off if I feel I need it. Despite the slight chest issue it had been 8 days in a row anyway. Was feeling quite good again this morning and slept well so glad I took the day off in the end.
Went out for 10-miles this morning and I had a nice run out. It was good that it rained yesterday but it still felt humid to me.
I bought a pair of Sauconys and they arrived yesterday - Guide ISO. I haven't ran in these before but trying them on yesterday and they seemed very comfortable. I went out in them this morning and they were nice to run in, so I may get another pair.
Ian - hope you escape the storms, not forecast for down here. I love running in a thunderstorm as long as it's not more than ten minutes or so.
Big G - much better to take a rest day when you feel you need it. Is the chest strain easing now?
Welcome to the Saucony club, glad you like them, you'll get a solid 700 miles out of them too.
You're right, very humid today although cool. I checked the weather before I went out and it was 98% humidity, I didn't feel hot but my face was sweating and the sweat wasn't evaporating. 15 miles today, flat route just a few undulations but no hills. Had a good run but in the first mile as I ran past B & Q a bloody seagull was swooping and diving at me and making the most godawful racket, they nest on the roof of B & Q. I felt something on my back but put my hand up and couldn't feel anything so that was OK. However when I stopped at 7 miles to have my drink I discovered that it had crapped on me after all but it had landed on my bottle belt, missing the bottle thankfully but all over the pocket part where I had tucked away a couple of sweets. I didn't bother with the sweets, decided I wasn't in need enough to try and open the zip through the crap. I'll put the bottle belt through the wash, don't think I've washed it since I bought it. Supposed to be lucky!
On the way back as I came past B & Q again the seagull was perched on the streetlight glaring at me, I crossed the road and I think as there were a few cars around this time it let me pass.
I couldn't keep my HR down today, due to the humidity I think so pushed on to do a negative split for the 2nd half, only by a couple of minutes though.
Glad the shoes suit you, Big G.
Shades, urgh to the seagull. I had to sponge down my hydration vest as well though that was because I discovered a gel I'd left in it from a previous run had sprung a leak.
Today's run had two aims: firstly to go to Wimbledon using a different route (I noticed King George's Park was actually quite close to Wimbledon Park on the map) and secondly, find the elusive Toast Rack on Wimbledon Common. This is a narrow, ascending dirt path with wire fences on either side that runs through the middle of the golf course and is one of the more "delightful" features of the Wimbledon Trail Series (which I did last year). Even though it's not steep, it's quite tough as it's long and on a gravelly surface. Thing is, it's quite hard to find unless you really know where to go.
The first aim was was fine - I ran to Earlsfied but instead of going to King George's Park or the Wandle Trail, I followd the roads I'd identified that would take me to Wimbledon Park. So far so good, except that my plan to cut through Wimbledon Park was scuppered by the fact only the gate I went in was open, so I had to lap the park and then find a way around using the roads. (Fortunately it is a nice park).
From there I ran past the All England Club (sad to think there won't be a tournament in a couple of weeks), up the hill and on to Wimbledon Common, though at a different point from where I normally enter.
The second aim was a lot trickier. I found my way to the Windmill (not hard, most paths seem to lead there) and from there to a lake called the Queensmere (which I intended, but I'd only seen it during the trail series so wasn't sure if I could find it). From there I ran along my usual paths, but in the opposite direction to that which I normally take. There's a stream called Beverley Brook that I had to run alongside for a while, and somewhere along there was the Toast Rack turning. First attempt to find the turn-off was premature so I looped back around (had to jump over a log at one point) and went a bit further down the brook. At that point I really had no idea what I was doing. The path I took looked right at first but then wasn't, and I ended up in a field with several false exits (and some cotton-tailed rabbits) so had to backtrack. Then I saw wire fencing. I ran along it for a short distance and there was a turn off it - it was the Toast Rack! I'd hit it from a different direction than in the race, but I'd found it nonetheless. Mission accomplished? (It was also just as tiring as I remembered).
I felt pretty fatigued on the way back from Wimbledon - kept scuffing my feet and actually told myself off at one point. Achilles wasn't too bad though - actually better than yesterday despite this being a harder and hillier run.
16 miles all told - averaged 10:28 pace for this but the Toast Rack mile (which included me blundering around the rabbit field) was a minute slower than that and the miles on the way home were much quicker, despite the fact I was feeling tired.
Nice Epsom Salt bath when I got in. I will definitely need a rest day tomorrow.
Another good run from you, you're very focussed on keeping up the long runs.
Big G-They are my usual training shoe,speaking of which I just bought another pair of them and adrenaline
Cal-Good weekend running again from yourself,are you doing your masters 5k next Saturday? I'm trying to decide what day to do it,will probably be Thursday or Friday depending on the weather.
Shades, my chest seems fine now, but the corresponding area on the back is still very slightly tender, although not really causing any problems when I run. I think I've got away with it as I was a bit concerned at one point, but then I am very wary when it comes to back issues in particular. Good old Tiger Balm worked its magic....maybe! Bad luck on the seagulls!
Walked to work with OH and then walked back home via the harbour area. Lots of investment in that area lately, and there's been a small kiosk there, Molly's, for years selling coffees etc. I guess to keep up with the improvement in the surrounding area, they've had an overhaul as well and now have a large, posh-looking decking area where you can stand or sit, made the kiosk a lot bigger and generally it looks really good. So I went in there for a coffee and a bacon bap (second breakfast....) on the way back home, standing there overlooking the harbour as I ate it. Very nice too.
Good to hear you like the Adrenalines and have obviously got used to them now. Did you get them at a good price? The price seems to hold well on them. I want another pair too but cheapest I've seen is £80, not saying they're not worth that.
Big G - maybe the chest and the back were two separate injuries, but at least you're healing. Should get you out of any heavy lifting or DIY for a while longer though
I saw that Devon County Council were issuing lots of temporary licences to premises so they could have outdoor/pavement space for their businesses, they were waiving the long time it usually takes to get a licence. And of course this is the time of year that they should be able to take advantage of that too.
I've had 2 breakfasts too, had breakfast before and after my run. One big advantage of long runs, and by the time I get home, faff around, leisurely bath, update training diary, forum....it's not far off lunchtime too.
One of the best things about running has to be the eating.
Shades-They were £79 and I got 10% off,have to pay for delivery but we got 3 pairs altogether so cut the delivery cost down,more than my guides but happy overall.
I meant to say, that I've been reading that 80/20 book - nearly finished it actually. I've got three of his books now and I think he's a good author; I've got Racing Weight, How Bad Do You Want It?, and now this 80/20 book (Shades, I know you mentioned you wanted to borrow Racing Weight).
A couple of things that stood out to me when I read 80/20 included:
- although we all often think hard about training paces (i.e., doing a tempo run at x min/miles) he was saying that the evidence shows that if it's a bit faster or a bit slower than that, it really doesn't matter overall.
- people changing their running style doesn't have any impact. In fact, it can make them less efficient. He's basically saying that although the elites do look effortless and many club runners don't have the "perfect" style (I am certainly one of those!), he's really advising to not mess too much with what comes naturally. He does comment that running easy often promotes the best style for an individual in any case. Apparently there have been lots of studies in this area.
The one thing that isn't that useful for me at the moment is that his plans are in some ways based on knowing Lactate Threshold, and although he gives ways of estimating that, I've never done it. Maybe one day, but he does that say his "run 30mins as fast as you can, and then measure average HR in the last 10mins"-approach hurts
Big G - I'll borrow any of his books when you are ready to lend them.
We do need to meet up soon I think I have about 9 copies of RW for you. We'll maybe sort out an outdoor coffee sometime.
Interesting about the tempo pace, I always give a range of 20 seconds for tempo runs. I take what the calculator says is 'ideal tempo pace' and then give a range from 10 seconds per mile faster to 10 seconds per mile slower.
I agree with the running style too, let it be unless it's causing injury.
I've heard of the 30 minute test but haven't done it, some have the calculation differently, I think I've seen ignore first 10 minutes and take average of last 20 minutes. You must do the test alone apparently so that it's a truer test than if you were running with others and 'racing' it.
Doing Hadd tests can also help find out LT too. Of course as you get fitter, depending on training your LT will change, move up, so that's where the Hadd tests help as you do them periodically.
Rcouture - good run from you, I expect it was humid for you too.
Right early lunch I think
Shades, I realised I wasn't 100% clear on my previous post. I should have added that he's saying that the 80% is more important as the runs at that pace are the bread and butter of his plans. But he's saying that it doesn't matter if the exact/precise pace of the 20% varies a bit and it depends on what someone is training for in any case. It kind of all makes sense and even he comments in one section (about obeying the hard/easy principle) that "It's another one of those practices that makes so much intuitive sense, it's a wonder anyone had to discover it".
He does say that even in base training it's good to get some speed work in, which is different to what Maffetone says. I'm actually going to ignore that bit and stick to my 3 months base training period as I've said, and then decide from there. But when I do introduce some faster stuff, I think I'll use the Fitzgerald book as the basis, even if I don't do an LT test.
Yes, a meet up would be good. I was thinking similar actually.
Big G - I think 80/20 makes good sense but I see most runners exceeding the 20 % without even realising it. A runner doing say 50 miles a week then that's only 10 miles a week doing faster stuff, by the time they've done a club run and say a parkrun there's none of the 20% left but they still want to do MP as part of a long run and maybe a tempo run too.
If you're still tempted by trying a 5k you could incorporate that into a LT test and do both at the same time.
Big G - My cousin was a big tennis fan and got me tickets to Wimbledon when I was 18 - you'll have a good time if you manage to go.
Ian, I'm not sure actually because I have the other virtual race (the 3 mile hilly run) to do this week as well, so I need to figure out recovery. Today's left me feeling pretty tired and stiff so it won't be before Wednesday.
Shades, 30-min at 5k pace? Ooooph! I know what you mean though. I think if I do a solo 5k time trial as I may well do for that Erme Valley Relay virtual race, I can stick that into a pace calculator to see what it should be 30-mins. That's the one thing I thought when I read it - how will I know what pace to go out for 30-mins?! - but if I've a recent 5k I could work it out from there and do it again at some point in the future.
60-miles for the week here again, which is a bit down on what I'd initially planned this week, partly due to reducing slightly because of the chest. Still decent for me though, so I'm happy with it and it's the most consistent block I've ever done. I've a feeling May and June will be my biggest months I've ever done, even compared to where I've done multiple marathons in a month. Here are the last 7-weeks, which is an average of 61; the 45 was my toe issue, again not really a running injury! Hoping for a bigger week next week, so purposefully decided not to run this afternoon to hopefully be fresh tomorrow to start the week off.
Again, trying to look for patterns, but a few days after my enforced 45 week saw me do my best MAF test (although I had done 16 miles the day before that test). I don't know if there's a link with the lower week or not, although I think it probably is just a coincidence.
Big G - yes, you're right. Even with the best of intentions it's quite difficult to stick to the 80/20 especially running in company.
You often see either a couple, or 2 friends, who do all their training together even though they're not equally matched. Usually it's the faster one of the pair that makes the most improvement as they've had to ease up to stay with their training partner. Whereas the slower runner ends up having to work harder than is comfortable at times so is running a higher % at effort than they should.
When I had my running club and we were marathon training, HA who was the fastest runner in the group always stayed with a group that were slower than her. Her first marathon on 3 runs a week she got a GFA time, the next fastest girl in the marathon was a good 20 minutes slower, and hadn't hit any wall.
I meant a fairly speedy warm up for the first 10 minutes then go for it for the last 20 minutes which would be about 5k wouldn't it?
How fast, well like a race, as fast as you can without blowing up.
I think once your initial BT phase is done you might on a whim one day just feel like running as fast as you can.
I just looked at my last 10 weeks and they've been pretty good too,averaging 58.9 miles,highest ever over that period before was 43,only had 1 week below 55 and apart from this week 1 over 62 so really consistent.
Just looked properly and my splits were actually really good until the last one so I think it was dehydration rather than going too fast,which is great as it was 15s/m quicker than any other long run.
I've been MAF training for about 6 weeks and have increased my mileage very gradually to date, as I'm so paranoid about getting injured again (despite having been advised that injury isn't a big risk with HR training).
My mileage progression has been:
Week 1: 11 miles (this was my first week after an injury)
Week 2: 14 miles
Week 3: 17 miles
Week 4: 20 miles
Week 5: 25 miles
Week 6: 30 miles
I've made some (albeit slow) progress with pace during this time.
I was considering going for 30 mpw again this week, as I'm conscious that I haven't had any 'hang back' weeks yet (so am compromising with a 'consolidation' week - i.e. not hanging back or building). Is that sensible or should I just jump to 35, or even 40 miles? I'm noticing a slight twinge in my hip, but it's minor enough to maybe be psychological? I ran through a hip niggle a few weeks ago and it disappeared...
I guess my question is, can you really just jump into MAF training with 50/60-mile weeks, or does there need to be at least some kind of progression? How did you guys build up (if at all?)
I'm aware that more mileage= more progress, but am really struggling to shake off the paranoia here.
NWCB - you've made significant progress in your weekly mileage in a relatively short time. And to have some improvement on pace too is really good work.
Yes, take a step back week this week, even drop back to 25 if you want. Your hip niggle might just be a signal that your body wants an easier time for a few days.
With HR training patience is required and that can apply to increasing the mileage too. You can't jump into 50/60 mpw without a steady build up. Some of us have been running for a long time, many years and most of us are marathon runners. But due to there being no races some have had the time and energy to increase their mileage hence a lot of talk about higher mileage.
No need for any paranoia, you're doing really well, so be kind to yourself and drop the mileage this week and you'll be raring to go next week refreshed.
Even with MAF, I don't think it's advised to bump the mileage up too high, too quickly. In terms of my own build up I've been running for a few years and have done some 60-mile weeks in the past when not MAF training so for me 60-miles wasn't unheard of before starting this. I've been doing MAF only for 7-weeks (my mileage graph for that is above), and I seemed to have settled on that figure fairly naturally for me, but as I say I've been running for a few years.
Rcouture (a fairly new runner I think and also new to Maffetone) and Shades may well have different advice, and I'd be interested to hear that too.
Big G, to answer your question, I've been feeling really good in general - not tired during the runs (although sometimes I need a nap later in the day - is that normal?). I also feel really motivated for each run (whereas I used to dread some of my runs in the past).
Keeping HR low has been much harder in the humidity, and I think not taking water on my 8-miler this morning was a mistake, but generally I'm really enjoying this way of training
In terms of future build ups, would you recommend doing 25 this week, then back to 30 the following week, then up to 35 three weeks from now? I know the rate of progression has to be based on feel somewhat, but I do well with having a plan (otherwise I either get too confident and overdo it, or too cautious and end up making no progress).
I've heard of people doing 3-week builds with a drop in the 4th week, but it's knowing how much to build per week that's tricky...
Thanks again! I rarely post but often 'lurk' and have learned a lot from your guys experiences.
We've all noticed the increase in humidity over the last few days so maybe take a drink with you or drink a bit more pre run.
Yes, 25, 30 and then maybe 35 sounds like a good plan but be ready to alter it if you're tired or the hip is still a bit sore.
Now the mileage is going up you don't need to increase by 5 per week. An increase of 2 or 3 is fine. And take a step back week whenever you feel you need it.