Shades Marathon Training



    Rcouture - well you should do a very comfortable PB then 🙂

    Big G - I see Davey suggesting that he might do a Quadzilla on a new course.  I posted a reply about being interested in a new course, think I must have cabin fever from lack of marathons.  😉

    I even considered doing the double at RED events when they said there were spaces. 
    8 miles this morning, 4 miles undulating, 4 miles hilly, overall climb 711 feet.   Gorgeous morning and this is one of my favourite routes through very quiet villages/hamlets, no traffic just lots of rabbits of all sizes.

    Gym later.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Shades, I also saw that from Davey.  I very much doubt I'd do all 4 days, and certainly not on the usual course!

    Regarding me struggling to keep the HR down in these conditions, if you were me, would you still be super strict with the MAF HR, or would you let the HR go over a bit if I felt I was still running at the correct effort.  I kept it in the right range today, but again it involved quite a lot of walk as it did last year, which is pretty depressing quite frankly!  Yesterday I let it drift a bit and enjoyed the run more, whereas today's 10-miler was more stop/start.
    Big G - I don't think I'd want to do all 4, also depends what time of year and whether the course is still tarmac.   If all my criteria is met I'd probably do Day 1 and Day 4.

    Re HR, it's up to you.  If your HR is too high then you're not running at the correct effort, what you're feeling is what has become your usual training pace.   So you just have to make the choice for yourself whether you want to do a MAF run or not.  You could certainly allow yourself one less restrictive run a week without slowing your aerobic base progress too much.   It's just unfortunate that now you want to rebuild your base the weather is humid.

    If I'm doing a hilly run then I will allow my HR to go up to a max of 80% on the steepest hills, I had 4 significant climbs today and only on one did my HR go that high, 2 of them I kept my HR no higher than 76% and the other hill was about 74%, I didn't walk at all.  I thought it was less humid today but the sun was warmer by the time I finished my run.
  • RcoutureRcouture ✭✭✭
    Big G/Shades - Out of curiosity do either of you use the 180-age + 5 for MAF? Think he says that’s the max rate after you’ve been training at MAF for a year or two. I effectively do that for my long run max HR where it coincides with my zone 2 max (based on max HR) but not for my normal weekly stuff. Not sure I want to either as I’m happy at current paces but just curious. 

    Went out at 6 this morning but within a couple of minutes my calf was quite tight with moderate pain so decided to bin it. Never stopped a run like that before but that calf has been tricky in the past, I got 5 hours sleep after lots of driving yesterday and I have this half coming up at the weekend so better safe than sorry. 
    Rcouture - hope the calf is OK, do you think the driving yesterday aggravated it?

    I don't use MAF for my HR training, I'm a sort of Hadd disciple so train at 70-75% MHR.    At the age I am now the MAF calculation of 180-age+5 comes out at about 76% my MHR so pretty close now, but had I used MAF  when I'd started HR training it would have been too high a HR for base training.   I have a low MHR, which is why the MAF calculation didn't suit when I started.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    RCouture, I'm 45 now so I think strictly speaking I should be 140 (180-45+5) according to MAF, but I run to 142, as that is what it was when I started.  Although I think of myself as a MAF runner, I did check it with other calculations before I started.  For example, with a max HR of 195, 142 is 73% so MAF is in the right ballpark relating to that.  Also, with the Karvonen method taking into account my RHR of around 53, 142 worked out at the lower end of Z2.  So although I do think of myself as a MAF runner, I did sense check that number with other methods to make sure it was more or less correct, but I still think of it as MAF for simplicity.  When I felt I was quite fit last year, I was often running around 135 for a lot of runs, and sometimes below that, but it got to the point that 142 sometimes felt quite quick and a bit of an effort to maintain the corresponding pace!  I'm nowhere near that fitness currently though.

    Shades, deep down I know you're right.  I'm just going to have to suck it up for the majority of my runs and get back to walking more than I'd ideally like.
  • RcoutureRcouture ✭✭✭
    Shades - I hadn’t considered that but yes 4 hours driving might have stiffened the calf up. I think it’s ok and have had the issue before which clears up after a couple of days but I don’t want to take any risks. Novablast 2 arriving today which is exciting but will only try them once calf is settled. 

    Big G - Yes I’ve also doubled checked other methods and for me MAF at 180-age (without the +5) is the most conservative so I’d rather run to that especially as I don’t actually know for sure what my max HR is. Long runs I give a bit of leeway to account for cardiac drift. 
    Big G -I don't really think you expected me to say anything different.   You might find in just a few days you'll start having those better runs again.

    Rcouture - I have had spasms in my calf muscles when driving particularly if I'm driving in heavy traffic, stop, start etc.  I moved my seat a little closer to the steering wheel and found that helps.

    Incidentally the instructor in the gym that was helping me a couple of weeks ago told me to stop doing any weighted calf raises as that's too much pressure on the calves which get plenty work from other leg exercises.  

    Did you wear your HRM for your 5km race?  That would give you very close to your actual MHR.   

    New shoes, lovely. 😊
  • RcoutureRcouture ✭✭✭
    Shades - Yes I wore the HRM. It’s interesting as the max HR for my 5k was only 176 whereas for the ‘sprint’ finish at the marathon it hit 183. The 5k did not feel all out really. Think I lost faith quite early at the pace I was delivering and so was never in a place where I was suffering/pushing that much if that makes sense. Lack of race experience/confidence. 
    Rcouture - well maybe at your next 5km and you're sprinting like hell at the finish line 😢
    edited July 2021
    5 easy miles this morning, on the flat, just as well as I have trashed legs from the gym yesterday.   I've got some new lower body exercises and as yet can't gauge how much DOMS I will get after them, I should get used to them soon I hope.    Pilates is going to be a bit painful I think.

    Well I watched the PM's briefing yesterday.   If that all gets the green light in a week's time that will be good news for our races, subject to EA not making up any daft rules of their own.

    Big G - I heard there was an outbreak and 3 or 4 pubs in NA shut over the last few days, including the Rec, don't know if they've all reopened yet.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Shades, yes, we were told about The Rec.  We've actually cancelled training this week (Mon and Weds) as although we can meet outside it didn't seem right to still meet there.

    10.5 miles today, and it was a bit fresher this morning.  Hamstring niggle felt the best it's been for a while.  It's still there but I don't think running is making it any worse - in fact after a run, it feels easier to stretch etc.  Always a tough one to know whether to stop or run through a niggle but at the moment it seems to be coping with what I'm doing, so hopefully that will continue.
    Big G - I suppose the football matches might be responsible for the Rec and others being closed.

    That's a good run from you today, it was 97% humidity when I went out but cooler so I didn't really notice the high humidity at all.

    Good the hamstring responds well to running.

    Pilates was hard, I feel like an elephant has sat on me.  🐘🐘🐘

    Next week, foam rolling  :'( Pilates instructor said "bring your pain threshold".   I think I overheard that the foam rolling goes on for the next 4 weeks.

    Instructor did say that when restrictions lifted class size will increase, we have 17 at the moment in that studio, won't return to pre pandemic of 30, but maybe up to 24.
  • RcoutureRcouture ✭✭✭
    Shades - Your pilates sessions often do sound brutal. My local yoga classes are starting up again from the 19th which is exciting. 

    7 miles at lunch with a debut for the Novablast 2. So far so good as they are less squishy and more stable than the invincibles. Early days though. I have unretired the Mach 4s and 1080v11 as they still have miles left and there’s nothing wrong with having a broader set of daily trainers. 
  • Davey's Quad is Easter long weekend (Fri to Mon) location not specified. Yes i saw it too and expressed interest ;)
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    edited July 2021
    What do we think Davey's new route may be?  Up from Clearbrook Village Hall as usual at the start, but turn right and keep going along that path (the one where we usually turn around on during the first mile)?  I've just had a look on Google Maps and it looks like the path there goes on for a few miles and cars can't access it, according to Google Maps anyway.
    Rcouture - our instructor is ex army and she doesn't miss the slightest wrong move so classes are good but fairly challenging mentally and physically.
    Today we were doing PNF stretching which increases flexibility by training the brain to exceed the limit that we think we can stretch,  hamstrings and backs today.  All done very carefully and slowly.
    She does an Army PT class too, which I've avoided so far.

    Good your yoga classes are resuming soon.

    Your calf niggle is OK today?   Good to run in a variety of shoes.  New shoes sound like a good buy.

    Keith - Easter weekend is good timing as usually there aren't that many races then.  You'll be coming south for that then.   :)

    Big G - is the route on the website?  I'll have to have a look at Google maps.  So does it look like laps or out and back.  I think he said marathon or 50km.  He did reply to my question about running surface and he said similar to Plym Trail route surface.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Shades, no I haven't seen a route anywhere, but I was just pondering what it may be as Davey said somewhere on the Facebook thread that it's still based in Clearbrook.  I could well be totally wrong!
  • RcoutureRcouture ✭✭✭
    Shades - Yes thanks calf is much better. Will keep to higher drop shoes this week just in case anyway. 
    Big G - I've seen quite a few folk heading out on that path.

    I'll have a look tomorrow when on PC, too difficult on phone.

    Rcouture - good, you got rid of that niggle quickly.  🙂

    Big G - I've had a quick look around Clearbrook but it's hard to know whether the paths near Yelverton are suitable for an event.   I guess we'll have to wait and see.

    After I had asked Davey what proposed run surface might be, he then messaged me saying he'd not seen me for ages.   I said I was thinking of signing up for one of the October races, as I knew the August events were full.   Anyway I now have a place for the Saturday August event and I'm doing Coypool drink station on the Sunday  :open_mouth:

    6 miles this morning, humid again but not too bad.    Legs still a bit sore but not as bad as yesterday.
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Glutton for punishment there, Shades ;)  I've got a place for Saturday already, and was thinking of seeing if I could get a place for the Sunday, but I've so far resisted that (stupid?) urge!  I'm doing both RED events, which will be my first double since March last year, so if that goes okay I may consider it a bit more seriously for Plym Trail.  If it goes badly, I won't!  When I say "if that goes okay" at the RED events,  I just mean that I enjoy them and the second day isn't too bad.  I'm not out to set any fast times!  I've done no specific training for a double....but then I don't think I usually do anything differently anyway, although I always feel that I should :)    Just from the bits I've read, I think the RED events will be flatter/easier courses than Plym Trail.

    Also, part of me is still thinking about Dorney in October for a quicker time and the problem with me doing doubles is that the next week, and sometimes the week after, is not great training due to tiredness etc.  So that is on my mind as well, relating to August Plym Trail weekend being fairly close to Dorney.
  • Cal JonesCal Jones ✭✭✭
    Well you know my feelings on Dorney, Big G. :lol:

    Rcouture - have you done your intro session yet?

    As with the last two weeks, I did back to back XT days...30 mins elliptical plus lower body rehabby stuff on Monday and then 35 elliptical/10 cycle ergometer plus upper body weights yesterday. I was intending to run yesterday but the weather was crap so decided against it.

    The benefit of that was that I was fresh today and got out nice and early for a MLR. This was another explorer run, going out to Pollards Hill (somewhere between Mitcham and Norbury). Thing with places named Hill is that you never know whether there's going to be an actual hill or if it's more of a gradient. When I got there, I figured it was the latter, as it started with a rec that had a fairly gentle upward slope. But then I turned a corner and there was a big, steep grass hill which (when I checked on Strava afterwards) is 18% in the middle. I started off attempting to run it with short little steps, but ended up walking at the top. I am so unused to hills at the moment that I admit I was struggling, but given that I shouldn't really be running hills like that at the moment, I'll give myself a pass. The view from the top was really good, anyway, so I stopped to admire it for a moment before carrying on.
    I then passed through Norbury Hall Park, which I've not run through before - it's rather small and mostly taken up by tennis courts, but there are a lot of nice trees.
    From there I found a footpath which then turned into a railway bridge which I also walked (I usually walk any stairs I encounter on a run, partly to save my knees and partly because I'm convinced I'll catch my toe and fall chin-first into the steps above) but it came out into Norbury Park so I cut through there. Streatham Common was on my way back but decided against that as I figured running more hills wouldn't be in my best interest at this point.
    By the time I got back I'd run 10 miles, mostly at a reasonable pace (aside from the warm-up mile, the one with the hill and the one with the railway bridge, I was averaging around 10:20). My HR is also returning to pre-injury levels (it did get up to 170s on the steep hill but was mostly 150s for the rest, which is normal for me). So I definitely seem to be getting back somewhere to where I should be.
  • Tommy2DTommy2D ✭✭✭
    Hi Shades/Big G - the path north from Clearbrook towards Yelverton is generally ok but there are a couple of sections where it is a trail rather than than tarmac, there's also 3-4 gates to go through. The cycle track does continue beyond Yelverton and it is a tarmac surface but would mean crossing the A386 so can't image that would be possible. 

    One possibility would be to head down the hill from Clearbrook into Hoo Meavy and then follow the country lane to Burrator reservoir, a lap of the reservoir and then back, which I guess would probably be about 10-11 miles so would need to add on a few miles on the Plym trail or something to make it up to distance. That would involve crossing a minor  B road though so might not work. The hill up from Hoo Meavy to Clearbrook is short but very steep, would make a tough old finish to a race that's for sure!
    Tommy - that's really useful, thanks.    Davey did say possibly option of a 50km too so it might be 2 laps of the 10-11 mile route you suggested with an extra 4 miles on the Plym Trail for the marathon and an extra 2 x 4 miles for the 50km.   He could have a marshall at the road crossing.   We'll just have to wait and see.

    Are you tempted by a new route?

    Big G - by the time the August race comes round it will be 11 months since I ran a Plym Trail.    I was having an nostalgic moment again when he messaged me, so caught me at a weak moment.   I actually like the route, if I lived closer I'd happily train on it often but in a marathon it's the last slog up to the finish line that I find hard.

    At least I'm not considering a double  ;)  Sunday is full for the August event but you could put yourself on a waiting list.

    I thought Dorney was early October, that's 6 weeks after Plym Trail, you surely wouldn't be tired from the double by then.   I'm not saying you should do the double though.

    How are getting on with your marathon tally with forthcoming events?

    Cal - that's a good MLR from you.   When do you see the cardiologist, soon?
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Thank Tommy, that is useful.  It'll be interesting to see what he has in mind.

    Cal, good running from you again.  Sounds like you're getting back into it after your lay off.

    Ian, how are you doing?  How's the achilles?

    Keith, would you look to doing all 4 of Davey's events then?

    RCouture, definitely best to get the most mileage you can out of a pair of shoes I'd say.  Good news the Novablast seem to suit you a bit better.

    Shades, current tally is 86.  I've got Saturday's Exe Estuary which will basically be a day out on the coast path with no self-imposed time pressures, 2xRED events and 1xPlym Trail, so if I do those I'll be on 90.  I've none others planned so far except Dorney as I'd like to get a decentish block of training in before that if I can, and fit those other events I mentioned in around the training.  There are some other ones that I could travel to before Dorney but I've so far resisted entering...let's see if I can keep resisting!  Presuming I get around those I've mentioned, after Dorney it'll be a case of trying to figure out what to do for the remaining 9, and I've no idea about those as yet.
  • Cal JonesCal Jones ✭✭✭
    In a fortnight, Shades. Same day as the trail race!
    Big G - I haven't got the Exe Estuary on my list,  :)

    Yes, quite a dilemma for you.   And dependent on whether we have another lockdown or restrictions for events later in the year.

    I did plan to go to Chelmsford in October but then changed my mind, if there are more restrictions on numbers etc it's less likely to affect Plym Trail so will probably enter that instead.

    Cal - hope it's before the trail race then!
  • Big_GBig_G ✭✭✭
    Shades, yeah, it’s a dilemma to know what to do. I’ll get there though :) Sorry, I hadn’t noticed Exe Estuary wasn’t on the list. Hopefully it’ll be a good one, even though definitely not quick :)

    Just got back from a (very!) hilly, mainly trail, 8-miler. I wore my trail shoes, which don’t get much use, but I may wear them for Saturday as it’s been raining and it may be muddy/slippery in places. 
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