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Brian - cheers, so if I'm working at ~80% on the turbo then thats a bit slower than MP running efort, and if I was to work at~83% then I'd be at about MP effort. I think that HR will be a bit lower on the bike anyway so that means at the very least I'm putting in a decent effort during those sessions. Not sure I could turbo for long at 85% !!! However.............theres no running legs benefit to be gained from turbo-ing so I will defo need to include some MP running. At the mo the turbo harder/ run easy approach lets me bag a decent amount of both, but I defo need to remember to include the MP running this time. I have a 10k in 2 weeks and that will show where my running is at currently.
CD - nice one, best course time for a couple of years bodes well.
Mr B nice pace there! You're looking very good.
Selbs: crikey. What's the situation with it do you think?
Clearly: thanks
TR very nice. Don't neglect pace sessions. I think they are really imp't. Do some speed work when your body is drained from something like a 10-13m - they are a real help for building up the resilience over the last 6m of the marafun I reckon. Also think some mixed speed long runs are very good: things which throw the body out and make it less comfortable.
CD: superb! 1 am?!!!!!! Bloody hell!
7 miles cycling on the Thames towpath earlier with my bike now in town. My aim is to build up various rides in the week, incl the big one out to Godalming (approx 40 miles I think) where I'll be teaching 1.5 days a week until end of May (book launch). My hip is aleady WAY better though - masses of extra flex. So I'm expecting to start running this coming weekend.
HR - ha ha, nice one, kept my mouth shut but I thought you might have bebe able to run again in time, and it looks like it wasnt very long at all ! I remember some of those sessions your coach had you do (we dont see him much nowadays !), dont think I'll ever be running round a track but I need to make an MP change................champions do what it takes to win rather than what they'd like to do...................or something similar.
runfree - how many marathons have you run ? off what sort of program ? I would put my faith in PnD and follow their plan - they are selling lots of books for a good reason, and if they wanted speedwork in the plan they would put it in there. If you are running ~55mpw you need to do the core sessions. I had a recent peep at PnD and I liked the look of the plan that had a LSR, a midweek 15 and a Friday 12, all great stuff for marathons. I have identified a need to do a bit of MP stuff, but I've been running sub 3's off zero speedwork, its not about leg speed, how fast you can run reps at is irrelevant if your wheels fall off at 18M cos you lack endurance. Put your faith in the plan and follow it. MrB was doing a PnD session y'day that had 17M with 8M of MP in it !
Talking of which I did 5M @ MP this morning to see how it felt; and it was far far harder than it should have been
CD - well done on first vet + good time!
HR: you'll be back....just need to buy a new pair of Adios after you've knackered yours cycling off-road in them
Coro: Hope your cold doesn't hang around. I ordered some of the new Adizero Boston 3 from Wiggle but it wasn't until I'd paid that I noticed they're not available until the end of Jan; they look good but I'm desparate now. How are the Adios 2 compared to the originals? Think I'll be needing a pair come April.
runfree: you need to trust in the schedule. It does look easier than some at first glance but when you get down to it there are some pretty tough weeks in there. As TR said, I did 17 with 8 @ MP on Sunday and I've got 10 with 5 @ 10mi/HM pace this Tuesday, followed by a midweek 14mi on Weds. Also the VO2max sessions of 1000 and 1200m @ 5K race pace, between 6 and 4 weeks out hurt quite a bit on tired legs. What's your target pace for going sub 3?
Coro - I did 3 x 5km at sub2.45 pace and it was far too hard :¬(
10.4 miles for me today 20 seconds a mile slower than yesterday for the same Heart Rate. Safe to say it is rather windy.
Thanks everyone. It will be my fourth, my first pre children in 2001 and two about a year or so ago and an ultra. I previously didn't use a program and just ran lots and lots of miles with no structure (this is my father's philiosophy and has got him a 2.36 pb!). I do however think some structure works for me (and perhaps he would have done evn better by following a schedule, who knows?!).
Another question, do any of you do any sort of crosstraining?
Thanks again.
HR: yes, 1pm rather than 1am when running across Epsom Downs would be a very different proposition.
RF, if by 'crosstraining' you include swimming & cycling then yes, quite a few do those.
Did all these plans and schedules exist when British marathon running was at its peak in the 80s, or have they simply coincided with the decline in standards since then?
I'll nail my colours to the mast in saying that I think the P&D schedule is fairly good, but not great. It particularly lacks enough long runs, by which I mean 21 milers. And a lot of those 21+ milers should be mixed pace. Trundling around has its place but the body is a cunning devil and will settle into patterns. It needs to be forced out of comfort zones for marathon training. My good ol' coach of sub-3h fame (in case anyone doesn't know by now it was BEJ) put me through some bliming tough sessions with some long runs including pyramid and fartleks. Also some nasty ones which had fast pace in the middle, not the end. MP runs where you finish fast are not the solution. Why store up energy to burn at the end? What you really want is to burn up all the energy early on, or mid way through, and then try running on ... that's imho the sort of run which will really build the vital endurance for the end game.
Thinking back to VLM I felt very rough and I don't remember much about the second half except pain, but the body had been trained to do what it did, so it just did it.
I'm not for a second comparing myself to those giants of the 80's but I suspect this is pretty much where they were coming from.
Mr Boat - you seem in great shape early in the campaign then if your average marathon HR is around 170! V nice. I am miles off where i want to be at with regards to marathon paced runs in a medium/long run - probably still 30-45 secs a mile away from my target pace. but maybe my rough target is just unrealistic.
9 weeks in a row of 50 miles or more under my belt now. Only ended up just scraping over 2,000 miles for 2011 i think, but i never really do high mileage i guess. Would like to get a year where i average 50 miles a week though rather than 35-40.
TR - sounds like you have the plan just right for you this year for VLM IMO - adding the bits you felt were missing from previous (still successful) ones.
I THINK it might be Marders big China marathon this saturday so will bestalking.
Gobi - i'll definitely keep that marathon on the to do list if i don't snap.
CD/Gobi - nice parkrunning.
Joolska, thank you that would be great.
Home Run, thanks,that's something to think about.
13 very wet, wild, muddy miles on the towpath (bike not running). All good stuff.
Jools how is the recovery going from the epic run?
So windy here so dug the turbo trainer out an did 15mins followed by 20mins of core work (new years resolution).
Its the club run at 7 so it'll be another easy run
Get more motivation in this weather with #Jantastic
Open competition at www.marathontalk.com/jantastic
Sign up, it's free, it's fun.
Just back from a few days without internet access (except standing in the corner of the garden in the rain to pick up a weak 2G signal), so I've merely skimmed. Happy new year all!
I did 1765 miles in 2011; PBd twice, but only just: marathon by 30 sec and 10M by 1 sec (!). This year I'll find out if I'm in general age-related decline or not. Did an undulating 17.5M including 5x0.5M reps and 10M@6:55/M yesterday though, so I'm getting some focus back.
DanA -- cracking to get a 5k PB at the end of that big week.
Jools -- cutting it fine with the champs entry there?! I don't suppose the signed-for delivery will work with their PO box again this year, either...
mmmmm -- nice progression back to fitness there.
CD: first prize won this year for the forum? Well done.
RS78>Is the Inov8 Talons you have for fell running? I want something for fell running option and for general off road stuff (local park run included)
Yes, I started with XTalon212s, which I got on with very well, and have now retired those out to general off-road training or just walking-round-town type use and have some XTalon190s "for best" (got them on my birthday last year and won the parkrun in them to try them out). (Feel identical by the way.) I've found both excellent for comfort and grip on just about anything (including all but the most glassy ice). The studs do eventually wear down, but by avoiding unnecessary road training in them you should get many hundreds of miles before the knobbles stop biting so well. They're a great solution for mixed-terrain races.
In fact I've appreciated them so much that I'm a bit disappointed to have suffered some blistering in the Road X-Lite 155s I got recently, which I assumed would fit just the same but be lighter for road running. (I tend to have issues around the edges of my feet and behind the toes when running fast, perhaps because I'm always 'greedy' for lightness in my shoes.)
3x16
3x17
4x18
3x20
2x22
1x24
and these include 4 runs with MP-paced sections building from 8-14 miles. Certainly, the 20 miles including 14 @ MP was one of the toughest sessions I've ever done.
I do agree with you on the need for pace sessions like 10 miles @ MP on a track. I did 6 of these in my 2009 campaign and they really worked.
And Brian's 80% sessions are also very good.
And cramp is in my opinion not related that much to hydration. Much more likely is the brain shutting the muscle down after too much fast running leads to poor running form and poor muscle activation. The solution is MP running, mixed pace long runs and half-marathon racing.
My 2011 results:
Miles: 1810 - lowest ever
Races: 8 - lowest ever
PBs: 1 (5k)
But I did swim and bike more than ever before, so maintained my training hours at close to the usual level (454 hours instead of the 480 of most years).
Even more sadly, I have just discovered my father who I do not talk to has to take medication(that I don't fully understand) due to getting constant hamstring cramping and tears.
Not actually very happy about this.....
Been cycling this evening (turbo)
Matt I don't think six 20 milers is enough. I'd much rather see 9 x 21 milers (21m not 20m) in a campaign of varying speeds. I used P&D 2nd edition in 2009 and reckon my coach's plan was far better
In addition I don't think the P&D MP runs are the solution. Yes, 14m @MP is tough but in training I think it's much more valuable to do some seriously gruelling mixed pace runs which are a lot harder.
For VLM 2011 I did 9 x 21+ milers, which were seriously tough:
1. 23m with 12 min -ve split
2. 21.5m. Undulating mixed terrain course:
5m @ 7'50 then
10m alternating 5 x 1m easy (8'mm) and 5 x 'moderate' 7'05(149); 6'56(150); 6'55(153); 6'31(148); 6'51 (154 uphill) then
6.5m 'normal' on hilly route @7'15
3. 21m av 7'39mm. Phenomenal session. 4m @8mm then 8m 'Pyramid effort' equal recoveries between paces 30sx1m pace; 60sx5k; 120sx10k; 5minsxHM and back down to 30sx1m pace then 3m @7'15; 3m @8mm; 3m at 7'25 into teeth of wind and uphill. Overall HR 137. Legs v tired at end.
4. 23.1m @7'48 (4) 3 hours. HR139. 3m warming up @7'53 low HR
5m @7'49 AvHR 138; 5m @7'50 AvHR 139; 5m @7'42 AvHR 142 (some downhills); 5m @7'47 AvHR 145 (some uphills). Overall HR139 for 7'48 23.1miles = 3 hours. All about endurance.
5. 21m Wey towpath. Tough run. Underfoot dreadful: like treacle most of the way. 21 miles overall 7'15 pace but deliberate mixed sections with 5m @ easy 7'37mm; 5m @ moderate 6'59mm; 5m @ normal 7'18, and then 5m @ MP
6. 21.3m relatively easy @7'35mm Legs tired from about 12 miles.
7. 21m. Half Marathon RACE (9th place) followed by 7m. F-ing tough run. John Austin Half Marathon @MP (7). 1.1m w/up 8mm New Forest then HM in 1h25'36 @6'31 pace (tough course) 9th place / 500, then 7m @ roughly 8mm. MP section cHR160 - hilly / boggy so not surprising. Tough run but great fun. V40 4th Place.
8. 24.4m Pretty tired from the outset first half average 7:48 first half, second half average 7:09 but faded last 2 or 3 miles after the hills.
9. 22 miles with 20m @6'59 forest trail of one mile loops, muddy in places and undulating
Remember also I did 2 x track sessions mid-weeks. Not saying I am anything to write home about, but I did pb by 25 minutes. I am convinced coach was spot on, especially that fast-finish-long-runs aren't what you need to be focusing on (one or two are fine). You need to deplete yourself earlier and then run - that's what really gets your body ready for a marathon imho. Also, beat the shit out of your body by screwing up the paces: those pyramid ones for instance in the middle of a long run. Gets your body out of comfort zone. Bloody tough though!
Just saying
Got my HM pb between nos. 6 and 7 too with the 1'20'08 at Bideford.
Of course the fact that I'm now crocked has nowt to do with it
MtR - agreed, thats a lot of 16s, 17s and 18s as well as the 20s. Also PnD put a lot of pace into some of the long runs and too much of that burns too many matches and leads to early peaking. Folks should follow the plan as it is written, and trust in it.
Selbs - if I repeat the training I did last time with some MP then I should be in a better position come the B of the Bang........but I find it hard to run hard early door at times. Maybe I should start with just a few miles of MP once a week from now, so that I get used to it.
Gobi - mmmm, that doesnt sound good. Hopefully you can find ways to manage it. I think its something that folks might be pre-disposed to (i get it at the end of 1/2 IMs too), but I havnt tried to crack it with MP running or any 1/2 maras (as MtR refers to), so I need to try. I cracked the screaming quads of previous campaigns by thumping up and down that hill near me, but also need some sustianed faster stuff for the hammy now !
back to the usual double routine today with a 60min turbo and the first dip in the lido for 2 weeks - and I got cramp in there allright !
TR you wrote: 'Folks should follow the plan as it is written, and trust in it'
Why?
Most people who are successful in this change it and the two acknowledged weaknesses are 1) lack of sufficient long runs (which is 21m + not 16m or 17m) and 2) insufficiently focused mid-week medium to long runs with pace.
To 1) as I have pointed out the long runs are also insufficiently varied in pace, and when they do have pace they are often in the wrong place.
I trusted this time not to P&D but to BEJ and it landed me a 2'50 at the age of 47. Reckon if I could have been arsed and fought injury a 2'45 was on the cards. Totally unconvinced P&D would have landed me that.
By the way, I don't doubt there are many routes to success I am just not convinced P&D gets you top results without a few significant tweaks.
Whilst I'm on the subject, a lot of folk on here do shorter distance races, which I think achieve some of the things lacking in some traditional marathon training schedules. You need pace sessions, not merely because of extending fast twitch fibres, but because it mixes up the metabolism which helps with endurance. (And they're great fun!)
Just saying.....
I ran my PB off huge mileage but was more a long term combination than one perfect plan
At least no one is asking if they can do a decent marathon on 3 runs a week.
All this talk of cramp is bound to bring Dull out of lurk mode!
Charlie.. nice 17.5m there. Is the withered arm getting better?
Good double workout TR & more trainer donning planned I see.
Same windy stuff as everyone here so two treadie runs today. 4.2m easy early doors plus 6.3m tonight with 6 x 0.5m @ 10k pace in the middle.
Well he did help launch Marders to stardom which is a whole lot more significant than my modest V452011 ...
I agree: many ways to skin a cat. Just think P&D needs some tweaks for real effectiveness. And I still think 6 x 20m is marginal.
Mind you I did hear about a bloke who spent most of his marathon training on a rowing machine and rolled up to a sub-3h!