Sub 3



  • Amazing Bainsy! But 178 pounds???
  • MennaniaMennania ✭✭✭
    That’s a quality run bainspj. Should knock those couple of mins of quite easily compared to a 15 min PB👍🏻
  • Great marathon comeback bains.

    Nice steady progress there Joolska.

    Hope you haven't hurt yourself TR.

    Calves still pretty solid but definitely easing a little. Have an appointment with my physio this afternoon so hope to be back at it soon - I don't like not being able to run especially when we are having such lovely running weather.
    If you think you can or you think you can't you're probably right.
  • Has anyone used the Active Root ginger stuff? I'm wondering if it might help with my GI issues.
    If you think you can or you think you can't you're probably right.
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    Jools - a few have saud to me that all  need to do (following Brighton) is get to Yeovil fit.........if only it was that easy.

    CD - meant to say.........ypur making the hard hard and easy easy is very valid. I read the othet day about making the hard hard, easy easy and lomg long in marathon training.

    LMH - pop a couple of immodium on race morning ? I do.
  • I do too TR.................
    If you think you can or you think you can't you're probably right.
  • WardiWardi ✭✭✭
    I know what you mean about getting a run in again LMH.  I tend to eat like an American teenager in the first week after a marathon. (Pizza plus Creme Egg flavour ice cream planned for tonight with a beer or two :p).  Just as well I managed a pleasant 5m in the sun this morning with only a hint of tiredness in the legs.  Either my recovery is improving or I'm not trying hard enough on marathon day!
    Bains.. what a brilliant run, no wonder you were stoked and emotional at the end.  Welcome back aboard, stick around this time as your journey towards sub 2:40 needs to be witnessed.
    Menn.. hope the rest of your Edinburgh build up goes well, is the foot ok now?
  • MennaniaMennania ✭✭✭
    Cheers Wardi, Foot is giving me modest jib at the moment, but very rarely when running. Seems to come on after a session.  Consider myself pretty lucky that I had such little downtime with it. My diet remains absolutley shocking - I must eat 600-800 junk calories a day easily - never been given any evidence that its worth the sacrifice at my level of running. (I havent looked mind).

  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    edited May 2019
    LMH - mmmmmm, maybe you need to find some pre race medication then. Can the GP help?

    10m here
  • Fantastic race reports everyone!

    Huge congratulations to Al_P on the sub 2:28 - absolutely outstanding.

    Bainspj - that is a fantastic run, a marathon from your wildest dreams!

    Brilliant performances from OO, JB and CD as well. CD - your earlier note about plateauing resonates with me, more of that later.

    CW - yet another sub2:45 and some graphs as well, can't say fairer than that!

    Great to see TkTk, CRAB, Ode and Dan all nailing sub-3 as well.

    Sorry to hear your woes LMH and CC2.
  • Electric SheepElectric Sheep ✭✭✭
    edited May 2019
    Race report. Got to the GFA start (or yellow start as they now seem to be calling it) without too much hassle, and it was nice to meet up with most of the usual suspects! I decided to jump in the start pen early-ish this year, which unfortunately meant 40 minutes standing in the cold wind, probably not ideal!

    The gun went and I was across the line in 30 seconds. I must admit that I didn't feel great right from the off but the first few miles ticked by and I was through 5K in 19:02. A bit too quick maybe but the effort level felt OK. I slowed a bit in the next 5K (19:23), but it was starting to feel a tad too hard and I can remember that the uphills that usually I barely notice were feeling like a slog. I slowed some more, the next 5K was 19:56, and I'm already thinking that sub2:45 was a pipedream, but looking OK for a PB. Still not feeling right though even at 6:2x pace. So I slowed a bit more, and the next 5K was 20:09, meaning just on PB pace. I can remember wondering if someone had made Tower Bridge steeper this year... Through halfway in 1:22:51, but I continued to slow in these next segments (20:27, 20:41, 20:35 5K's). I noticed that my breathing was short and rapid, I really had to concentrate and make myself breathe deeply. I got a stitch somewhere between 15 and 20M too, another sign that things weren't right. Various muscles also started to twitch in this section, so I knew it was not going to be an easy ride home. As I pass 20M, I'm feeling a bit better, and I actually try to push on. I can't make my legs go faster though, and my HR actually starts to decrease as I'm now running 6:3x's. People are passing me in the last 10K instead of the other way around! At this point the mile markers start to seem light years apart but I'm still going. We pass 40K and I think that even if I run the remainder at 7min/mi I'll still get a PB. So then of course the right hamstring twangs! I stop. I know it's a mistake, but I've already stopped before I can consciously react! Now I can't even stand up straight and I just keep trying to stretch it out. Someone runs past and tells me to get going. It works - I just put one leg in front of the other and hobble until the hammy releases a bit. I got such a huge cheer from the crowd at this point which really made my day! The final 2K was at 7:50/mi pace so the PB was probably gone even if I hadn't stopped. I was certainly glad to cross the line anyway, for my second fastest marathon of 2:51:05. It was great to meet up with the crowd in the Red Lion for a few pints afterwards.

    So where did it all go wrong is what I've been wondering for the last couple of days! Well to be honest I hadn't been feeling good during the last few weeks. My body felt like it was worn out and in the last few days I was feeling a bit queasy too. I just put that down to the usual taper madness and maranoia though. But looking back I'm wondering if my training is just too much for me. Yes, there was an element of eyes bigger than engine on the day, but I think it's more than that. When I ran my 2:50 PB in 2016, it was off the P&D 55-70mpw schedule. For Boston 2017, I upped the mileage so it was more like 75-95mpw. I was on good form in the build-up, set some short race PB's, did MP training runs at 6:15/mi, but did not have a good marathon (3:04, cramps for the last 7M).  Again the pace felt hard, again I slowed continuously throughout, but of course I put that down to it being a hot day and challenging course. Note that a month later, I ran a 2:53 "rebound" marathon... For London 2018, I was injured for a month in Feb, so ended up putting together a 9 week training block peaking at 93mpw. I ran 2:55 on a hot day, passed tons of people in the last 10K, and felt great! I am sure that given a cooler day, that would have been close to a PB. For London 2019 it was back to the 75-95mpw for 18 weeks and no PB. So I am wondering if I should either drop back to the lower mileage 18 week P&D schedule, keep the higher mileage but go for a shorter schedule (say the P&D 12 week variant), or just try something completely different. CD's comment about plateauing definitely got me thinking. So did thinking back to my recent autumn half marathon training which had a lot more LT work in it than P&D. I'm interested to sit back and hear the thread's thoughts!
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    edited May 2019
    ES - good report there, still a good day out, you managed a tough day well. Marathons are hard to nail, sounds like you worked too hard from too early. As to why ? Maybe it was just a bad day maybe you were tired or under the weather. Did you do the 18 week P and D ? Dont forget that you did a long and high mileage campaign for a 1/2 in the autumn. Maybe the two campaigns clashed? Still a strong day, dont beat yourself up too much.
  • You did well to run your second fastest marathon in the circumstances ES and if you don't try you don't know so I can't see what you could do other than go with the early pace. Can't help with the training I'm afraid, for me it comes down to mostly doing what I enjoy and not breaking myself.
    If you think you can or you think you can't you're probably right.
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    As well as "just stay fit", the other advice a couple of folks have given me, is to do a bit of quality before yeovil. Tuesday i did a 6m tempo as progressive 2m sections in my commute 10. Today i split the 6m section into 6 x (approx) 1 mile with 60sec recovery, which was proper old school training and proper tough too.
  • JoolskaJoolska ✭✭✭
    5 miles with some strides for me this morning.
  • Nice report EE.  It's still a decent result as others have said.  We must have been close at the 5k mark because I ran it 15s slower but started 15 before you.  It does strike me that you run your best races when you're not chasing a PB - your 2:53 'rebound' run, or last year in the warmer VLM.  Maybe chasing a pace early on is a bit of a barrier.  Just a thought.

    4 easy miles last night, just enough to confirm that not running the Richmond half next weekend is the right call.  It wasn't a lot of fun - no soreness, just residual fatigue.  More recovery needed.

  • JooliganJooligan ✭✭✭
    ES interesting report. Reading it reminded me of my recent experiences. I ran my best marathon of the last 3 years at Abo off an 8 week build up after a 6 week spell of running only 20-30mpw & my PB back in 2016 was off 12 weeks after a fortnights injury layoff over Christmas. I had a much higher mileage but less intense campaign for VLM 2018 & was in great shape up with loads of PBs but reckon I probably peaked a month early. I was then fatigued despite a decent taper & the temperatures were the nail in the coffin. I swore I wasn't going to try such a long campaign this time but never really had a proper break after Abo/Snowdonia. Got to remember I'm 50 this year too so recovery time is only going to get longer. I think CD's point about the PB pressure is also relevant. Going in to my PB race I felt underprepared compared to previous marathons so figured I'd be happy to knock a minute off but ended up taking 7 off for the 2nd consecutive year! Since then I've been chasing my tail as every time I miss out the pressure gets more intense.
  • MennaniaMennania ✭✭✭
    ES - I used to use the full P&D but the last 3 maras have all been off the shortened P&D programme. Not being fatigued on race day is absolutley paramount, and how you get to that balance of fitness and race readiness is such a  personal thing. 12 weeks - cut back week 6 weeks out and reduced taper works for me. I find having an absolute pace plan for the race almost mile for mile and having absolute confidence that you arent overreaching based on training allows me to relax and not worry about pace during the run. Clearly theres sod all that can be done if something goes twang, or you suffer illness, or the wind is in your chops etc etc but I go in feeling as prepared as I can and in control of the controllables. The downside of this is that you never surprise yourself - hopefully acheive what you set out to do on the day, but never any more. Which probably makes me a habitual underacheiver, and quite dull.

    Last night was the P&D run which I just dont get - 12 miles with 6 x 1200 at 5k pace. It seems unrelated to mara training and reckless at this stage, but like a little sheep I did it. Must admit I felt quite good at the end of it.
  • OuchOuchOuchOuch ✭✭✭
    ES - A god report and that was a pretty good run considering you were not 100% - only 2-3 secs a mile from a sub250 performance with a hammy problem.  But I know what you are feeling, a few % better and its a very good day.  A tricky one to answer.  It does sound like you weren't in tip top shape at the start of the race, which must be a red flag when you think of what your going to put your body through - could be accumulated fatigue, could be an illness, could be performance pressure, playing on your mind or all of these or others?  I cant believe you've plateaued as CD's performance then showed.  As you suggest, maybe reduce the miles but add a greater % of LT stuff.  
    CD/ Menn - Thanks for the feedback on the shoes - £220 to increase my confidence, yes Nike that is magic indeed.  Menn - Agreed, a race that goes to plan is a satisfyingly dull race. 
    2m slow this morning.  Nice to be off the race pony for a while, no races now until August, binned my Cornish ultra for next month.   
  • OuchOuchOuchOuch ✭✭✭
    Bainsy - Your departure from the thread coincided with my return.  Hang around, I got a lot to learn from you.  What a fantastic marathon, overtaking so many runners (me included) in that second half.   Must have been some feeling running so fast, coming down the Mall and crossing the line with such a PB.  
  • Thanks everyone - I love soaking up advice on this forum!

    I am seriously thinking that the 18 week plan ends up with me peaking too early and so it's good to hear similar experiences from Jooligan and evidence of the benefits of the 12-week P&D from Mennania.

    You all mentioned the pressure too! I do feel annoyed at not getting the result that 18 weeks of hard work deserved, and perhaps that was playing on my mind this time around (and back in Boston in '17).

    So maybe a short marathon-specific plan, more LT work (perhaps some icing first prior to the 12 weeks), and less worrying about hitting a particular target is the way to go next time. Speaking of which, I have an Abingdon place for this autumn  :)
  • JoolskaJoolska ✭✭✭
    ES: I did a 12 week build up for Chicago and although at the time I was disappointed with my 2.53, I think that was more to do with jetlag and emotional overload, and that actually I would have run a faster time without the flight and emotional stuff.  I ran an untapered marathon effort half at 1.22.30 in the build up.  I'm certainly prepared to consider a 12 week build up, although I suspect it favours those with a good aerobic base, so wouldn't be a good idea for me at present.
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    edited May 2019
    I guess it depends how much training youve been doing pre the 12 weeks, if you're dojng a decent amount then itd probably be like an 18 week build up anyway  if you havnr been doing much then 12 weeks might not be enough (as jools says), as its actually only 10 weeks of training, and would be a jump from low miles.

    ES - see you at Abo then, there could be a few of us.
  • OuchOuchOuchOuch ✭✭✭
    edited May 2019
    ES - A last thought, there was a 10-12 mph headwind on Sunday, and though we were protected for most of the time by the buildings,  when we were in it, the effect for a 6 min mile runner is 10-12 secs.  Didn't feel too bad on the run but clearly not optimal.
    Just booked my return for the Malaga marathon for Dec, the day before I enter the V55 cat, could have timed that better - 30E entry, return flights £45 bargain and mad! 
  • CharlieWCharlieW ✭✭✭
    Dan -- sub-3 and no (formal) medical attention. TT -- well done on your sub-3 and looking after Dan!

    CD -- brilliant, run of the day for me.

    TR -- actually the 22M was *one* week out; I did 26M two weeks out. But that was the same formula as last year when things went really well. My real problem has been super ploddishness in the working week I think; trudging too slowly for it to really work the big-volume training magic.

    CRAB -- beautiful.

    OO -- aha, I went past Mr Wedding Dress only quite far into the race, I guess you did too! Nice one.

    Wardi -- well done, I trust by now you're over your doubts and looking at hotel bookings for next year?

    bainspj -- huge congrats, lovely negative split.

    ES -- cripes, sorry about the hamstring. I had one go ping in ?2014 in the last mile -- able to finish VLM, but it took me 2 months to get over it. In my case I think I was just running too close to the limit, and the fatigued muscle went into sudden cramp and I tore it a little bit, with a pronounced 'thunk' sensation that made me swear out loud. Good result nonetheless.

    I'm on hols with no running kit, though my legs (as usual for the Friday) feel normal now so I probably would have run (and regretted it) if I were at home. Eating like a pro, it will be interesting to step on the scales when I get home...
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    edited May 2019
    CW  - i thought i put 22m 1 week out. Maybe its time to reduce that. Would be a good time to try a different approach anyway? Your body would probably respond well to some different training.

    I had a day off wotk today to make a long weekend and get my long run done as we have a family wedding tomorrow. Thought i had best make sure i did a decent run to justify the sacrifice, so did 24m in 3.10.
  • That's a cracking long run TR.  Not mucking about, that's for sure.
  • TRTR ✭✭✭
    edited May 2019
    I kept it easy (av = 7.55 pace ?). I did 3 x 23 which were all 3.00 pre Brighton and still ended up taking longer on race day (although the wind didnt help), I'll be miffed if im out there anywhere near 3.10 at yeovil.
  • PadamsPadams ✭✭✭
    edited May 2019

    ES - as others have said, I think you did well to hold it together that well considering you were working hard early on. Out of interest, what did your taper look like? Sounds like maybe you should have cut back a bit more so you were fresher on the day.

    In my opinion you can't go far wrong with a few weeks of c50mpw all easy, followed by the P&D 55-70mpw plan. Obviously once you get to the really sharp end more miles are needed but I think that would work for most people.

    TR - very nice LR, must be nearly cotton wool time.

    26M for me in the first 4 days of the week (which is a lot for me!), nearly half of which was on Tuesday - club track session plus run there and back.

    Mini-P has had a cold since Saturday, which I now have, so not running today and probably won't run tomorrow. I would usually crack on with a cold, but I am feeling slightly shivery and a bit of a headache so doubt it would be a good idea.

  • WardiWardi ✭✭✭
    Good to see you back in the long run groove TR, 5 weeks to Yeovil?
    Kids seem to be a magnet for bugs Padams, bad luck with that!
    ES.. the marathon can be a cruel mistress and sometimes a mysterious one.  You still ran a cracking time, some days there is no logical reason why we are a notch down on expectations.  I still have no idea why I struggled at Barca, so I just put it down to a bad day.  Onwards to the next one!
    Charlie.. I am leaning towards VLM again next year, a few of our club have GFA's to roll over including 3 lesser spotteds!
    One young lass who runs/trains with us 2nd claim joined the sub 3 club on Sunday, her splits were pretty good too..
    Another 5m today, legs getting back to normal.

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