PH - I have been to Sacramento, was in San Francisco this year already, ran the Chicago marathon, but I can say I am not HIM I can tell you making the time for Boston means a lot to runners in the US.
"In chapter 2, I discuss recent studies that cutting out much of this slow training, but retaining the speed training, does not impair performance, at least over shorter distances of 5 to 10km".
"Since the 1950s, there have been at least 92 studies of this topic [altitude training]. Of these studies, 76 are scientifically unintelligible because they were conducted without an adequate control group..."
BR wrote: "Because if you don't train yourself to control cardiac drift at 75% and 80% you won't control it at 87% and so drift into an anaerobic state too early on in a marathon."
That assumes that effort is proportional to heart rate even if the heart rate elevation is due to cardiac drift. Is that the case?
"Boulay et al (1997) examined the effect on work rate if the heart rate was kept constant. The results showed that in order to maintain a stable HR (176-180bpm), the work rate had to be decreased significantly (17%). The %VO2max decreased from 80% to 73%"
I guess my last two posts show that I'm pretty skeptical about base training. Individual anecdotes and proof by assertion don't make a convincing case to me. I've no doubt that LSD has a beneficial training effect, but I bet that mowing a lawn for 4 hours a day does too.
Hi - i posted a new thread elsewhere in training and was directed to this thread (here's the link to my original thread: http://www.runnersworld.co.uk/forum/forummessages.asp?dt=4&UTN=50470&last=1&V=1&SP=), and, from what i've read it's very informative. however, due to the size of the thread i've pretty much skimmed through it, and consequently have a couple of questions. in my post i was asking about the merits about a HRM with regards to improving times, and there are a lot of posts on here about cardiac drift, can someone please give me a concise description of what this is, and if i need a HRM to diagnose/cure it? also, any hints that anyone can give me for improving my 10k/5k times will be greatly received!! thanks...
there is quite a lot about drift in this thread - but I suspect no-one is going to go over the whole thing again - if you read back you will find it - I asked some time ago so to save time scroll through to find my picture for the first time and it will be there - as it was the same reason that I came into the conversation.
You might want to read the original base training 'Hadd' article as this is what much of the discussion on this thread refers to. It's very long, but worth reading (whether or not you choose to train according to Hadd's methods). Basically the idea is that in order to get faster, you first of all have to slow down. In a nutshell, you need to train your aerobic system so that your muscle glycogen (which is what gives you the energy to run) doesn't need to be 'topped up' by your anerobic system. If you go to the base training thread (called 'Base Training' - original poster Kenneth Horner) there's a very helpful explanation by Pantman about this aerobic/anaerobic stuff using power stations as an analogy.
Cardiac drift is about the fact that your HR naturally rises throughout a run for various reasons which I won't go into here. Hadd's principles work around the need to minimise cardiac drift (by training at various given heart rates until you can control this tendency for the HR to rise so it is constant for the whole of a run at a particular HR) so that you can push closer to your lactate threshold (and get faster)without building lactic acid (a by-product of the anaerobic system).
This is a very crude summary and I may even have some of this slightly wrong as I'm not one of the scientists on here, but hope this helps a bit.
Sorry, forgot to say that you don't want your aerobic system to need 'topping up' by your anaerobic system as this builds lactic acid in the muscles, causing you to tire more quickly and restricting the ability to sustain pace over distance.
Also forgot to say that the analogy by Pantman is near the end of the base training thread, not at the beginning.
Comments
What precisely do the two links you have posted add to the discussion?
ill never do Boston
but maybe one day berlin
Training under what misinterpretation !!???????????
you all know who hadd is , dont you
grrrrrrrrrr
im not paranoid or owt;)
oh yes
it all becomes clear now
(er, it worked for me, in my humble way, anyone got his e mail addy so i can tell him shit runners benefit too)
"In chapter 2, I discuss recent studies that cutting out much of this slow training, but retaining the speed training, does not impair performance, at least over shorter distances of 5 to 10km".
"Since the 1950s, there have been at least 92 studies of this topic [altitude training]. Of these studies, 76 are scientifically unintelligible because they were conducted without an adequate control group..."
Discuss :-)
still confused, not up to it al like you are
Bounced back though
Sniff
That assumes that effort is proportional to heart rate even if the heart rate elevation is due to cardiac drift. Is that the case?
This suggests not.
"Boulay et al (1997) examined the effect on work rate if the heart rate was kept constant. The results showed that in order to maintain a stable HR (176-180bpm), the work rate had to be decreased significantly (17%). The %VO2max decreased from 80% to 73%"
http://physiotherapy.curtin.edu.au/resources/educational-resources/exphys/99/exhr.cfm
What is the best use of my time?
in my post i was asking about the merits about a HRM with regards to improving times, and there are a lot of posts on here about cardiac drift, can someone please give me a concise description of what this is, and if i need a HRM to diagnose/cure it? also, any hints that anyone can give me for improving my 10k/5k times will be greatly received!! thanks...
there is quite a lot about drift in this thread - but I suspect no-one is going to go over the whole thing again - if you read back you will find it - I asked some time ago so to save time scroll through to find my picture for the first time and it will be there - as it was the same reason that I came into the conversation.
enjoy the reading - it is quite interesting !!!
You might want to read the original base training 'Hadd' article as this is what much of the discussion on this thread refers to. It's very long, but worth reading (whether or not you choose to train according to Hadd's methods). Basically the idea is that in order to get faster, you first of all have to slow down. In a nutshell, you need to train your aerobic system so that your muscle glycogen (which is what gives you the energy to run) doesn't need to be 'topped up' by your anerobic system. If you go to the base training thread (called 'Base Training' - original poster Kenneth Horner) there's a very helpful explanation by Pantman about this aerobic/anaerobic stuff using power stations as an analogy.
Cardiac drift is about the fact that your HR naturally rises throughout a run for various reasons which I won't go into here. Hadd's principles work around the need to minimise cardiac drift (by training at various given heart rates until you can control this tendency for the HR to rise so it is constant for the whole of a run at a particular HR) so that you can push closer to your lactate threshold (and get faster)without building lactic acid (a by-product of the anaerobic system).
This is a very crude summary and I may even have some of this slightly wrong as I'm not one of the scientists on here, but hope this helps a bit.
Also forgot to say that the analogy by Pantman is near the end of the base training thread, not at the beginning.
The Hadd article is here: http://www.ffh.us/cn/hadd.htm (sorry, can't do links).