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The Middle Ground
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Glad the training went well duck.
I really like your approach to training, it is similar to what I plan my next year to be. For instance, I am going to go through a periodization plan starting with base this winter to peak in the summer for race season. I think you will also make use of the club they way I do, which is to remain primarily self-coached but to use a weekly club session as a hard work out and mix up the training. The best thing about joining a club sometimes can be that you have no control over the session - it really taught me to break out of a routine (just don't try to make up the miles elsewhere if it turns out to be a short run).
Regarding my hip: I actually feel it is definitely good to run on now. I just got to make sure I stregthen my glutes when training picks up again. Unfortunately, I was stupid enough to play football barefoot and on concrete last week and landed on my heel
So it is sore to walk on still. By the time my foot is better my hip should be tip-top though.
There are three things I have learnt this summer that I am going to incorporate into my training to avoid injury:
1) Strength training - I am going to join my uni's gym to make sure I have a great core (hopefully!)
2) Rest and recovery - I am going to make sure I always refuel within 30 mins of a hard run with carbs/protein. There would be days when I would go out for a 16 miler and then wait 3 hours before eating again, which is stupid. I am also going to up my calorie intake when intensity gets tough, mainly be eating more after training. Additionally, even when my training picks up to be high volume, I am going to take at least one race day a week regardless of how I feel, and two rest days being even better.
3) Periodization - previously I had tried to remain at my peak fitness all year-round. I thought this would allow me to enter any race I wanted to and get a PB. Although this did deliver results in races, it lead to overtraining and injury.
Sorry if I am rambling on, but I am going to keep in the back of my mind when I feel an injury coming on that a week's rest is too short to lose any base fitness but it is long enough to recover from niggles.
Sounds like you had a good introduction to your new club Duck and enjoyed the seesion. Lots more to come by the sounds of it!
Ironcedar - a nice session and times.
I had a bad run last night crashing at 2 miles from under fuelling after session the night before. Silly thing to do, but it happens every now and again and although I'll say oh well learn from it, it'll still most probably happen again in the future,as it has many times in the past
Anyhow a good weekend of running coming up with an MT race tomorrow and long run Sunday so should still see a very decent mileage for the week.
F£$K, I hate that "too long" message!!! Lost it all. Try again.
The idea that aerobic condition is potentially unlimited and aerobic condition is limited seems a vague nonsense to me. Both are physical abilities not some type of Jungian withdrawal from a collective physiology, therefore both are initially governed by genetics. Present day theories propose that the limits of each are somewhat interchangeable, through muscle fibres being able to be recruited to different effect in small ways. This implies, and has been demonstrated in endurance athletes, that you can convert certain muscle fibre types from predominantly fast to predominantly slow twitch activity, but the reverse can also happen. I expect a weightlifter would train on the assumption that anaerobic ability is limitless, and as for limits to aerobic ability they would seem to be implicit in the effects of aging.
As for training them together, some bloke called Hickson, I think, demonstrated that endurance training impacted your benefits from strength training, and the field has been in debate ever since. I know that coaches still reach for the holy grail, especially in team sports such as rugby and football where both are necessary. The theories for training both at the same time revolve around complexities of nutrition and timing, not just around the sessions used.
That makes definite sense. They're two different distances, though far more similar than 100m and HM, obviously. Down at my level, where it's difficult to fit in all the training I'd love to do, focussing on HM training means a better 5k, but not a great one. Taking sessions to do 5k and higher pace training means shorter distances for the same hurt, so not quite as useful for the HM. It's a trade off. Not much of a trade off for a prf or a BRilly, but still a slight trade off.
Anyway, no run this morning, but I'm scheduled a single longer one for lunchtime. Got my Newport Marathon form through. Still get the feeling it's just going to be an expensive club LSR.
Dash - it does make sense, you probably have a decent LT but not as high as VO2 max as you could have. That was what came to mind first anyway.
As for pace, sub-90's looking a shoe-in so how about starting off at that pace then picking it up late in the day?
Sharike - Hm. I am looking forward to dune running but I'm certainly not that light so I might sink a bit on the way down
I might give backwards running a try at some point.
Do you train specifically for LJ as well, or is it more of a byproduct of sprint training?
Josn - the coach last nigiht said he tries to mix it up each week while keeping the output of the session (strength/stamina etc) much the same, just he tries to find different ways of achieving that output.
You should live in a padded room for a while
On one hand it will allow your hip to recover. Do be wary though - I twisted my ankle a few days before playing a sevens tournament a few years ago and it was weak for quite a while.
Your three aims look good to me. I've found core is something easy to do after a run - only takes 5 minutes.
Hilly, MT race?
I'm feeling ok after yesterday, but I'm resting until Monday now to make sure I'm fresh for starting training again. Inaugral Crathes HM tomorrow which mum is running so I'm heading home today to act as support on the course. She's hoping for another sub-90.
Ratzer - ok yes, they are slightly intercahangable regarding that some FT fibres are known as FTA or fast-twitch aerobic fiibres. They have aerobic and anaerobic characteristics within them so in that sense there is overlap.
But the thing is, IMO, ST and FT fibres have inhenerently different characteristics (I believe some have called this 'genetically ordained'), and although it is possible to make FT fibres have some aerobic characteristics you really can't cross that line to any great extent.
What may be better to say in that case, is that while there is some scope for improvement of anaerobic potential it only takes 12 weeks until you are 'level off' as such and are hitting rapidly diminishing returns.
Regarding aerobic potential I'm not sure how it's a 'vague nonsense' that there isn't a set limit to mitochondrial growth. You mention it's limited by age, which may be true past a certain point but I believe the reason we don't see more people with elite levels of aerobic ability is due to diminishing returns before that point.
Duck I'm training for a heptathlon. I was going to compete in my first one just last weekend - but it has taken me longer than a year to master - or at least become sufficiently proficient in - all seven events.
I went to a very academic grammar school and didn't do any sport at all from the age of about 12. So it's been a big ask learning things like the jav, shot, hurdles and jumping from scratch in my mid to late fifties.
As you know from my 'page'
the jumps are coming along. I really enjoy them - hence sneaking in the coached sessions. Actually my sprint coach fully approves of the cross training involved as most of it is speed and power based anyway. (And I'm a bit of a weed)
Hurdles and throws need plenty more work before I'm competitive.
Sorry folks. Hi- jacking thread talking to Duck about none endurance based stuff !
I can see how the other events would help with the explosive power needed. Good luck! I really like the idea of doing one some day. Might give the javelin a go this year actually.
Ratzer - something else I thought of. Isn't the drop-off we see in older atheletes mainly due to decreased power and stride length brought about by the effects of ageing? I'll admit to not having seen much research into mitochondria/capillary density reduction in tandem with ageing, so if you can dig something out on it I'd be interested to read it. I'm standing by Lydiard on the anaerobic 'tank' though
Anyway must run or I might miss my train
Not quite. Mid to fast. Phenotype change. And my favourite, PPOnline...
These are phenotypic changes - the expression of the muscle fibre, as in what it can do, has changed.
There is as much a limit to mitochondrial growth in the endurance athlete as there is to fibre hypertrophy in the weightlifter. Each mitochondrion in the cell takes up space, and uses resources in both passive and active states. You cannot keep creating mitochondria, there is a limit. In essence you could say that fibre hypertrophy is less limited, and therefore one of the aspects of anaerobic potential, strength, is less limited. I disregard here the diminishing returns caused by mass.
Both anaerobic and aerobic potential have a mass of systems involved which can be targetted for improvement. Unfortunately we don't know the full range and complexity of interactions, and therefore our plateaus are more likely to be caused by ignorance than physiology in the short term. But definitely limited everywhere by physiology in the long term.
Wow, been a busy thread this morning.
Nothing specific Duck, only vague undefined ambitions. I'm currently planning how i'm going to approach training for the next few months and that will involve establishing some benchmark targets etc. I'm currently thinking of using this programme as a base with some chopping and changing to suit.Going totalk to my coach about it at the club once he's back fromtaking a break from the track for a couple of weeks.
cheers guys. maybe the VO2 max thing is something i should address post-HM. will hassle you then for some sessions and fully expect a minutes p.b within 3 weeks as a consequence, because, as the old adage goes, patience is a nuisance. or something like that....
Dash remind me post HM, I did some VO2max stuff that Moraghan suggested a while back. It helped me get my 5k time down from 18:15 to 17:52, I think I could have gone faster as well had my legs not gone all crappy soon after.
Kelly its unlikely I will be online tonight as I will be at the father in laws, but plan to be at the moor for about 8:30am so I can get a few easy miles in before the parkrun. If I don’t see you until the start line I will make sure I am set to run 6:25/mi, or would you prefer a bit faster?
Dan - it will probably be a bit cold, so I won't be there that early. I run from mine as my warmup, so will probably be there for 8.45. I'll be wearing my club vest (in my avatar, Heaton Harriers) and racing shoes - thankfully they have red bits on them
. Perfect conditions yesterday, but windy as anything today and probably the same tomorrow, yet I'm still confident (I say that now, lol) of putting in a good performance so want to aim for 6.22 pace.
Ratzer - re: the message too long, hit Back on your browser and the text should still be there, copy and paste it out somewhere and back in to new messages depending on the length. Happened to me a number of times on race reports, but luckily it's all been there when I hit Back.
Dash - makes perfect sense. HM is obviously longer, but less intense.
My aim post HM is to go for sub 40 at Leeds in November, so I believe I'll be moving onto VO2 after GER. I've never done it before so I'm hoping it will give me another edge.
Curses! I've been out-scienced!
You're going to have to explain what phenotypic changes and hypertrophy means. As for being able to train both systems together (which I didn't acknowledge earlier on) I didn't know that was possible. Any links you have available?
Your point about mitochondria taking up space makes sense. In that case how long do yo utihnk, based on a training regime that is geared towards emphasising mitochondria growth, it would take to reach that limit?
I've apparently only got 15 minutes of free-wifi on the train...
I will also have red shoes, though just to make sure I look extra specially ridiculous I will also wear compression socks
Don’t worry about the weather nothing you can do about it.
...anyhow, i'm not getting involved in all them cerebral shenanigans. i'd much rather shoe-horn tarantino quotes in with my northern chum above!
good stuff AD. will shout you nearer the time for some pain-inducement (VO2 workouts!).
have just entered GER. Is that 3 threadies entered now then?
YD - Great. I'll look out for the socks
. Not too worried about the weather, just meant I'm used to running in cr@p conditions now so it won't put me off from trying. Of course it might be a different matter when I'm being blasted by a freezing headwind across the moor... hopefully this is where you will come in even handier 
.
Dash - I'm definitely all signed up and already have my number. I can't recall what it is, but I remember thinking it is something pleasing for my number weirdness, something like 1661. I believe PRF has his place confirmed too.
think 1666 was the great fire of london and 1664 is a french lager that used to give me memory-loss in my student days! 1661 doesn't ring a bell though.....hang on, i get it. you love a palindrome!
Good luck with the 5K Kelly!
I'm with Dash on the cerebral stuff today ... even if I do know what phenotypic changes and hypertrophy are.
8.75 miles for me today ... this time it was 7 laps of Hyde Park. I originally planned to do 10 laps but cut it short as I've done quite a lot of MP running in the last few days and really need my legs for the last long run on Sunday (hopefully with some MP inserted into it). Anyhow, the 7 laps were very pleasing ... I set 140 bpm as my max ...ILTHR sessions are usually 145 bpm, so this was an easier session. Nevertheless, the average pace over the 7.35 miles at 78.5% maxHR was 7:15/m ... which is my theoretical MP based on a 90min HM. This is good news ...
Rest tomorrow ... then 24 miles with some at MP on Sunday ... then it's the start of taper.
Dr D - Thanks.
Excellent session. Will you please stop running? I seem to be forever 50 miles behind you on Fetch
.
thats an impressive HR for the pace. well done, the hadd stuff is really working for you. wish i had the patience to do it!
new to this thread..
just got back into running and improving myself feels so good!!
really want to be targeting some big 10KM race and run a SB onto a PB for 5KM
I do regular parkruns and current SB is 18:25
Inspired Runner - are you the guy talking about a sub 15 5k on another thread?
Dr Dan - nice place to do a session I guess
Lots of science talk again. I still don't get how they claim absolute truth when there's always a new study around to disprove the last one. I think the way to find out about running is to talk to lots of experienced runners.
Good luck tomorrow Kelly and pacer. The only thing to do is to not run the first mile too fast and the rest will fall into place if you have the fitness.
The multi-terrain race tomorrow is the world famous Barnsley Harriers Silkstone Shuffle. A series of four 4.75 mile races over the same route in vastly different conditions in April, June, September and November. Quickest cumulative time wins the series (and there's some household names on that Hall of Fame) and there's multiple prizes on the day, all for a £4 entry fee. Essentially, pay £4, have a good blast and camaraderie and win a £4 bottle of wine
Duck - multi-terrain.
I won't get involved in the microchondria discussion only to add as a mature female I think I'm still making it and don't think I'm getting too much drop off just yet
Hopefully I'll have a few more years of improvement over some distances and be able to hold steady on others.
Welcome I_R. That's a decent 5k SB. What is your actual PB for the distance?
yes I believe its possible for me to run a 15Min 5KM at some point ..
I have set out a goal to do it next track season but constant judging over this winter I may reassess as I may step up and run a decent 10KM If I cant get the speed quick enough..I have been running nearly 8 weeks now and dropped my season best time by 34 seconds already and held consistent runs..
A £4 bottle of wine is that drinkable..? Mind you that's probably a posh one for yorkshire
Have fun you two at your race
Um yeah the science stuff. I understood it, but now I have forgotten. Basically, Duck is arguing that you can build your cake more than your icing and Razter is saying that it depends on what flour goes in your cake?
Dr. Dan great session for the effort level, enjoy your well earned rest.
Hope YD enjoys Newcastle and delivers the windbraking goods for Kelly who smashes that 20 mins
I had a reall dog of a session this evening. 3 miles easy to steady, strides then 6 miles continuous alternating 1m tempo (7:05-7:10) with 1m steady (8:00-8:30), cd. Came out as:
7:05/8:19/7:03/8:18/7:09/8:39
Because I had the target 7-7:05 in my head and didnt even bother reading the garmin until the last rep! I thought it was tough at the time. Silly me
Anyway, got through it just although the last mile was a little slow...a bit tired by then!
Welcome, Inspired stick around loads of good advice to be gleaned from this place.
support is going to be my best friend for the foreseeable future!