Howdy, Stranger!
Categories
Options
sub-2:30 marathon
mmmm...marmite
✭✭✭
in Training
Just thought I'd kick this off with a bit of anecdotal analysis to provide some clues as to what's required to get under 2:30.
Here are a few halfway splits and finish times for a few people who clocked a 2:29 at London this year along with their fastest half marathon times leading intot the race (data from athleticsdata.com)
Halfway Split - Finish Time - Half Marathon Race Time
1:14:29 - 2:29:00 - 1:11:31
1:14:19 - 2:29:33 - 1:11:26
1:14:43 - 2:29:45 - 1:12:17
1:13:52 - 2:29:47 - 1:10:47
1:13:27 - 2:29:53 - 1:10:59
Looks like the most even splits yielded the fastest finish times and a quicker half marathon race leading into London did not necessarily yield a faster finish time, likely because of the over-ambitious pace during the first half.
Finish times were 2 x half marathon race time + ~6-8 mins.
So it looks like the ability to run something like a 71min-flat half marathon is required coupled with the endurance necessary to string two back-to-back sub-75 min halfs together.
Mike B,
If you're reading this, I'd be really interested to hear how you went from 2:33-2:35 a few years ago to 2:28-2:29. What changes did you make to your training/racing etc
Marders,
Obviously you've made a quantum leap going from sub-3 to sub-2:30 in such a short space of time. What are were the major factors in making such a large improvement.
JEJ,
How did you get your half marathon time down from ~73:30 to sub-71 over the course of the last year?
Be interested to hear any and all feedback.
Here are a few halfway splits and finish times for a few people who clocked a 2:29 at London this year along with their fastest half marathon times leading intot the race (data from athleticsdata.com)
Halfway Split - Finish Time - Half Marathon Race Time
1:14:29 - 2:29:00 - 1:11:31
1:14:19 - 2:29:33 - 1:11:26
1:14:43 - 2:29:45 - 1:12:17
1:13:52 - 2:29:47 - 1:10:47
1:13:27 - 2:29:53 - 1:10:59
Looks like the most even splits yielded the fastest finish times and a quicker half marathon race leading into London did not necessarily yield a faster finish time, likely because of the over-ambitious pace during the first half.
Finish times were 2 x half marathon race time + ~6-8 mins.
So it looks like the ability to run something like a 71min-flat half marathon is required coupled with the endurance necessary to string two back-to-back sub-75 min halfs together.
Mike B,
If you're reading this, I'd be really interested to hear how you went from 2:33-2:35 a few years ago to 2:28-2:29. What changes did you make to your training/racing etc
Marders,
Obviously you've made a quantum leap going from sub-3 to sub-2:30 in such a short space of time. What are were the major factors in making such a large improvement.
JEJ,
How did you get your half marathon time down from ~73:30 to sub-71 over the course of the last year?
Be interested to hear any and all feedback.
Tagged:
The materials in this website are in no way intended to replace the professional medical care, advice, diagnosis or treatment of a doctor, qualified personal trainer, therapist, dietitian or nutritionist Runners's World, Part of the Hearst UK well-being network © Copyright 2017
Comments
Hi mm -firstly well done on a fab marathon pb. I know I can't answer your query (I wish I was able to aim for that kind of time I'd have a few ladies worried
) but I'm really interested how you made such big improvements as I'm sure it can still be applied to runners of all abilities.
However I finished in 2:58:32, so things don't always go according to plan!
re: 1/2m race time - you have to factor in that when preparing for a marathon races during build-up vary in importance from person to person. I would guess that those guys you refer to probably didn't ease up too much for their halfs - if they had been aiming specifically for the half they may well have a little quicker and I wouldn't be surprised if they are capable of going a minute or two faster. Therefore I reckon that a 1/2m x 2 + 10min would be a more accurate reflection of their performances (IMHO).
Anyway - the rather boring answer to your question is the same as I would suggest for any distance or time goal. Run more.
Those at the very sharp end may well gain from running 'smarter' but 95% of runners would improve simply by running more (IMHO). Whether most runners want to run more - or most likely, whether they have the time - is another matter.
Think the most encouraging aspect of recent improvements is that there is no "secret". It's a classic demonstration of "getting out whatever you put in". At the risk of boring others who've looked at the "GFA" thread, my response when Morg asked the same question was as follows:
"The most significant differences between running sub-2:45 and sub2:35 for me were increasing mileage (regularly over 90 mpw for quite a few months), 3 key sessions per week (tues - tempo, thurs - medium long progression run, sun - long progression run), dropping interval (VO2) sessions (except for the last 6 weeks) and losing 6kg/13lb (5'8" - 59.5kg seems ideal "racing" weight for me)."
MM - hats off to you for your improvements.
The 2:29.33 runner is a friend of mine and I know he ran consistent 100m + weeks for 5 weeks in his key phase. He did not taper down for the Bath HM (where he did his 71.xx, which was a small pb for him). He ran a hard 20m run at sub 6m/m pace about 4 weeks out and did a low 33 10k 2 weeks pre-FLM off no taper.
His previous best was 2:33 a few years ago at a windy Las Vegas.
Marmite - thanks for that, I think this thread is alittle out of my league at the moment. But who knows? if i can stay clear of injury. Anyway thanks for the support and advise. Hopefully our paths will cross somewhere prior to F.L.M next year.
marmite - well done on your result last weekend and starting this thread (I normally hang out in 'sub-3' land). I will also be looking for a sub-230 at FLM '09. I ran 2:35:48 last Sunday. This was a 12 min PB (FLM 07 in 2:47) and I had a ~30sec -ve split. I felt very strong in the last 6M and my splits indicate I didn't fade towards the end.
My background : M36, I've been running for a bit over 2 yrs; times have come down over this time
HM Time When
1:16:40 Reading March 07
1:14:30 GER Oct 07
1:12:12 Reading March 08
My average mileage was 60M last year. My pre avg FLM mileage was 70M this year with 3 weeks in the low 80's. I'm lucky to training during weekday lunchtimes with a group including a V40 31 min 10k guy and a V40 mid 2:20's marathoner. I've started doing my long runs at the weekend with someone who ran 2:24 at FLM (5min PB). I'm hoping that continued training with these fast guys will help me to get to 2:30. I'm not going to run another marathon this year, but will try to get a 70:xx HM and 32:xx 10k. I'm planning to keep the 20M long runs going throughout the summer and autumn - these are sometimes reasonably quick with lots of miles in 6:00 to 6:10 m/m range.
I will look forward to seeing how this thread develops.
Hi MM well done and thanks for starting this thread. I managed 2:37:42 not bad for my first marathon but I was a little disappointed with my time. I went out with the aim of running sub 2:30 and as you say I was over ambitious with my pace at the start!
So I can’t help you with your goal but I can explain what I did to reduce my HM times. I started running in 2004. Most of my training before 2006 consisted of runs less than 1 hour and at a fast pace. In 2006 I was heavily influenced by Lydiard and also by people on this site like Barnsleyrunner, Pantman and Tom. (Thanks guys!)…
77:02 Wokingham HM 12/2/2006
55:35 Hook 10 21/5/2006
72:17 Bristol HM 17/9/2006
Between Wokingham and Hook I did an average of 60 miles a week with hardly any speed sessions and a total of 10 hard hill sessions. Most of my running was long and slow (>1hr) with no days off.
Between Hook and Bristol I was really training for Abingdon Marathon with the aim of getting a Championship entry into London. In the end I didn’t bother running Abingdon. In this period I had 1 week break and 1 week of rowing. I averaged 80 miles a week on singles (including a 100 mile week). I did no speed work (but I raced frequently) and most of these miles were run at 70% max heart rate.
2006 was my great year when I ran a PB at every race (and won my first race!). Since then progress has slowed and my HM time has only been reduced to 71:33 despite running >100mpw (peaking at 120) and introducing doubles.
FF - I'm sure Tom will be overjoyed to be mentioned in the same breath as Pantman and myself
Excellent progression from you over the last 2 years. I've stalled and am looking to rekick myself back onto the improvement curve as my pbs are still from 2004/05. Personal circumstances and injury blighted last couple of years.
marmite - you've just dragged me out of forum retirement! Must say that after picking up / aggrevating my first ever real running injury during the London marathon hasn't been great for motivation. (As a bit of background for anybody that didn't know, Marders, MikeB and I ran together for the first perfectly paced ~20 miles of the marathon before I was forced to stop with calf cramps which became too severe to run on - the cause of which has since been diagnosed as a muscle tear.)
73:30 in November was probably an unfair reflection of my fitness at the time - a direct answer to your question would that I found a faster course and was healthy when I ran it!
My training had also been more focussed on 5000m through summer 2007, although converting 15:34 5km (July) to 32:04 (late Sept) gave me hope that I could convert up to HM despite a longest run of about 95mins. However I suffered from tonsillitis at the end of October which saw me off work on and off for 3 weeks - the week of that HM was the first one where I felt up to running fast again. I travelled to the HM with a very fast / experienced training partner - we'd chosen a big European race due to the amount of fast times in previous years (plus his running CV ensuring the race organisers paid our travel and accomodation expenses). It turned out that the course was up in the Dolomites anything but fast ! Decent cash (€100, 48 apples and a pair of socks for 20th place) just attracted several Kenyan, plus top club level European athletes.
On my return from that race I switched to marathon training. By the end of Jan I started tempo runs at 3:30 / km or faster - the longest was about 10M, whilst the short ones were 10km in about 34mins. Even with a PB 2mins faster, 34 flat was a little daunting for a tempo run - I actually started at only 2M (!) but was able to work up to 10km the following week. There were 2 main reasons for these runs: the first was to get used to volume at a moderate to hard intensity, the other to get used to finishing fast - we'd aim to make the final 5km the fastest. A third benefit is that once a warm up / down is added, the session can double up as a medium-long run. A second session of the week varied between more tempo work, 5km paced work (miles, 1200s etc at about 73 - 75s per lap) and 3 - 400s as quick as mile pace - and sometimes a combination of these.
My next HM was 70:54 as part of a regular training week. It was originally intended as a longer tempo / progression run with a target of 72:30. After a slow start I convinced a fast-improving Marders to work with me through the field to chop about 7mins from his PB. The conditions were great and at times it felt hard to run so slowly - it was one of my more comfortable races we were both out for evening recovery runs within a few hours.
Once my injury heals up, my target is to get back on the track to achieve 15 / 31 before giving the London marathon another shot - ideally with a slightly more ambitious target.
I'm a bit of a freak so anything I say must be taken with a mine of salt, although I must be doing something right.
I was going to bore you with the long version but I’ll save that for the book
. Here’s some info I hope is useful!
Up to 1997 - Throughout school was always a decent runner but never put much effort in. Speciality events 400m (52s) and 800m (2m03s) – poor conversion looking back, not enough miles I reckon! I think 45 mins was my longest ever run!
Jan2007 – started back into regular running after over 10 years off (other than the odd 3 month stint to do a half marathon (poorly))
Sep 2007 – first Marathon (Nottingham). 2:58 (1:25 first half)
Oct 2007 – first 10km 35.22
Nov 2007 – Half 77.46 (taking nearly 7 mins off my 2.5 year old pb)
Jan 2008 – 10 miles 56.34
Feb 2008 – Half 70:40 (wasn't confident of sub 73 but I managed to hang on for a 7 min pb)
Mar 2008 – Half in 69:10 (a bit too confident as I was determined to get under 70)
April 2008 – FLM in 2:28:13 (1:14:19 half - thought 2:27 was on the cards but I’ll put that down to the conditions from 17/18M onwards!)
Some key things:
Jan 2007 – Sep 2007 mara - I averaged 22 miles a week. The 16 weeks prior to the mara, I averaged 35 miles a week and 3 runs exceeded 13 miles (14, 21, 24). Not by choice, but by deciding to do the mara only 4 weeks out! Training 0-5 days a week.
Nov 2007 – large mileage increase (nearly doubled) - 10% rule? Oh, 10% per day, that’s ok then
First double session. Training 6/7 days a week.
Jan 2008 – started training with BEJ. Basically, I just did whatever BEJ was doing (come to think of it, I still do!). More doubles.
Confidence – The fast tempo sessions gave me a real confidence boost, as a number of times, I smashed my pbs and we were just running at MP (a min off Oct07 10km time one week, nearly a min 30 off my Oct 10k time next week, beating 10M pb from a couple of weeks back).
07 avg monthly mileage – 151
08 avg monthly mileage (Jan-Mar) - 289
A large amount of my improvement has come since I started training (track) with BEJ. I had a non existent plan and he had way more structure to his training (a plan even maybe?). I was just going for runs at the same pace – too fast! Admittedly, we were only doing Tues/Thurs track sessions together, but with a long run over the weekend and recovery runs sprinkled about, our plans would have looked very similar (except for the insane amount of miles BEJ bags!). One of the biggest helps was our long MP tempo runs - 10k-10M at MP. We did these on track and it was very easy to hit a pace, reminded every 80-90 seconds (or after 100m/16 seconds when I start off a little eager). It's not that boring at that kind of pace and it was actually quite enjoyable! Try 22.2M on a treadmill for boring (told ya I was a freak!).
Well there's a start anywho. Now that was quick
Bazza,
I'd assumed that the half marathon race times for the individuals that I'd used at the beginning of the thread for illustrative purposes were times that were run without a taper in the midst of marathon training. The half marathon times that marders and JEJ/BEJ posted seem to have been run without a taper and for my part, I ran the Bath Half without really backing off. So I think your analysis is right, likely everyone would post something ~1 minute quicker if they'd been fully tapered for the half and as a consequence, marathon finish times might be more like double half marathon race time (when tapered) + 8-10 minutes.
In terms of "running more", where would you draw the line if time and other committments were not an issue - 100 mpw, 120 mpw, 150 mpw???
BR,
So are you also of the opinion that "100 mpw" is the way to go? BTW, I think Pantman should be "overjoyed" to be mentioned in the same sentence as Tom as the latter actually knows what he's talking about ; - )
Morg,
I hope our paths cross prior to FLM 2009 too. Right now I'm not sure what my plans are, other than I've signed up for the Stockholm 1/2M on the first weekend in September and if that goes well I'd be sorely tempted to give the Amsterdam marathon a crack.
Coronium,
Thanks for your input - interesting data. Sounds like your plan is to sustain high mileage and long runs with the goal of nailing down a quick half and 10k as the natural lead into a sub-2:30 attempt. Be very interested to hear how the spring/summer/autumn unfolds.
SP7,
Good to hear from you and definitely post to let us know how things are going. You've made some huge improvements over the last few months and I'm looking forward to seeing you post some more as the year unfolds.
FF,
That's a superb debut at the distance and beats my debut by 77 mins! Very interesting that you cite Lydiard as a big influence as I've come around to the Lydiard/Pfitzinger approach in a huge way over the last couple of years. Definitely seems like the "biggest bang for the buck" that you've experienced has come from a very Lydiard-centric regimen i.e. big weekly mileage in singles.
BEJ,
Great to hear that you've come out of (forum) "retirement" to contribute to this thread. You've made some tremendous improvements since you first started posting here and it's very interesting to hear your take on that.
So would it be fair to say that you'd attribute your success at improving your times over long distance races to running quickly over shorter distances e.g. 5k/10k? Or would you say that the "tempo" sessions at marathon pace were more directly related to improving aerobic capacity and the ability to sustain a fast pace over many miles. Or perhaps these two types of session (i.e. marathon/half marathon pace and 5k pace intervals) are equally important in your eyes?
Could you post a 3-4 week block of sessions that would illustrate what you were doing on the run up to your sub-71 half marathons from earlier this year?
marders,
"Freak" is a stonger term than I would use, but "anomaly" seems about right ; - ) It sounds like the most significant changes for you were a large increase in mileage and using a structured training plan with plenty of "tempo" running.
Seems that you feel the marathon pace runs were a prerequisite for delivering the goods on the day.
As for JEJ/BEJ, could you post 3-4 weeks of training on the lead into your sub-70 half?
BTW, although I'm not sure whether your were joking about a sub-noon finish at London, I think it's clear that on the basis of your recent improvements that a sub-2:20 is a distinct possibility and you never know, perhaps a sub-2:15 could be on the cards. I'd be thrilled to see you do it!
FWIW my spring/summer/autumn will likely be structured around the "summer of malmo" (stop lurking Rob, time to get typing!). The bulk of the plan is centered around threshold work with some neuromuscular sessions thrown in for development of leg speed. There's an obvious avoidance of VO2 sessions and it's clear that the program is very much a Lydiard/Pfitzinger style approach.
What are your thoughts?
Mike B,
Can we get you to join us? How did you convert 2:33-2:35 into 2:28-2:29?
BR what is your plan for more PBs? Where are you going to squeeze the toothpaste from next? I’m considering two options at the moment:
Take a bottom up approach and attack my 10k time reducing mileage and increasing threshold and interval sessions. I’m sure I can knock time of my shorter races but I don’t believe that this would improve my marathon performance in the short term.
Or continue with the high mileage but just running singles. Its too easy running 100mpw with doubles and I think misses the point when 25 - 35 miles are run at a very slow pace.
It’s interesting how BEJ and marders started running fast times in races right from the start. It took me a long time to get under 40 mins for 10k and under an 60mins for 10 miles. And its not because I had to lose lots of weight.
marders you not a “freak” more like a future elite. I’m sure some of the elite starters did a slower time in their second marathons.
Marmite - from memory:
W/C 14/01/08
M: 34 easy, 36 slow
T: 32 steady, track for VO2max 2 x (1600, 1200, 800) avg 75s per lap (first session with Marders)
W: 53mins steady (6:20 pace), 36mins slow
T: 39 steady (6:10 pace), track for 2M @ MP + 5 x 200m strides in 29 - 30s
F: 34mins easy
S: 34 easy
S: 8 - 9M warm-up, then Fred Hughes 10. Pulled hamstring jumping over water feature (flooded course) after about 3M. Jogged home for about 59mins(!).
Total 78 - 80M
W/C 21/01
M: am - physio to look at hamstring - deemed ok to run on. pm 40mins easy
T: 38mins steady (5:58 pace), pm: 2M wu, 10km moderate tempo (splits of 5:35, 5:34, 5:30, 5:29, 5:28, 5:26 + 74s), 2M home
W: 41mins slow, 45mins slow
T: 42mins easy, 1.5M w/u, 12km tempo - windy! (5:33, 5:35, 5:35, 5:25, 5:29, 5:34, 5:32, 81 + 75), 1.5M home
F: 41mins steady (6:20s), 5M slow
S: 30mins easy, pm - ran 2 (of 3) laps of SEAA XC but hamstring feeling tight (very muddy and getting worse) so jogged for 20mins on grass instead.
S: 2hr 38 slow (22 - 23 miles)
Total 98 miles
W/C 28/01
M: 34mins easy, 9M hilly
T: 34mins easy, 2M wu, 10km tempo - windy! (5:33, 5:30, 5:30, 5:25, 5:27, 5:21 + 79s) 2M home
W: 34mins easy, 25mins slow
T: 25mins in the heaviest rain ever (6:15s), pm 1M in 5:30 + 6 x 300m strides (~54s, windy!)
F: 30mins very slow
S: am - 5M steady, pm, decided not to race HM tomorrow as far too windy so ran 45mins inc 5km tempo on road in 17:30
S: 2hr 50 slow with clubmate (only 23 - 24M). Was right not to race - winner ran about 2mins slower than last year.
Total 87 - 88M
W/C 4/02
M: 35 slow, 40 slow
T: 34 steady, 2M wu, temp run (5:37, 5:32, 5:33, 5:32, 5:35, 5:33, 5:36, 5:31, 5:39, 82, 40 (200m)) very windy and stomach issues. 1M home
W: 34 steady - feeling tired
T: 33 steady (6:20 pace), long wu, 6 x 300 fast (49s ish) long wd
F: 25mins fast
S: 5M steady (6:20 pace)
S: Wokingham HM 70:54 (5:32, 5:30, 5:12, 5:22, 5:19, 5:19, 5:19, 5:19, 5:22, 5:32, 5:33, 5:27, 5:26, 34s) - chip didn't work which added several seconds to finish time after waiting for manual scan - 70:48 on watch. pm 5M steady
Total 80 - 85M
On the finish before noon - I don't remember saying that but I'm sure there was more than a little hint of sarcasm there if / when I did! I've got to where I am now in 3 years, the first of which wasn't really training 'properly'. I think that ultimately low 2:20s are possible but I lack the base speed to go any faster - doubt I'll ever go sub 8:30 for 3000m but I'm not one to put limits on ultimate performance. FWIW I think that Marders could get to the CG standard if he plays his cards right.
I think I needed the full year to focus on track, but what I've since found by spending 3 weeks in East Africa, learning from the locals, for anything 3km and up, 'just run' is the best way to train. One of the guys I was training with had run a 64min HM at 8000ft (perhaps worth 62 here?) and got so confused when I started a 10 x 300m (100 jog) session (I wanted something a little quicker but at that point couldn't sustain a good pace for as much as 400m!) - it was like he'd never done anything like that in his life. The fact remains that nobody is going to run faster than 4.2 x their 10km for the marathon, or 2 x 5km for the 10km. I'll be racing track - hopefully limping around the first Southern League 5000m in early May.
I have a 'meeting' with a very well respected marthon runner / coach in a couple of weeks to throw around some ideas about what to work on and when - for both Marders and me.
BEJ - it seems that before your HM breakthrough you also had a couple of races you had to back off from so were maybe fresher going into it than you might have been otherwise.
FF - I recently ran a 5k pb and beat people over 10 miles with recent times faster than my pb. This is by doing an MM in reverse - I was 10st 4 in 2004, now I'm 11st. I'm now consciously losing weight and the training plan is to simply do a summer of faster work around 5k pace (which includes some 100 / 150m reps run as fast as possible as basic speed is a big stumbling block of mine) then a shorter (8-10 week) block of marathon specific work with the important sessions in the M-12 to M+20 secs / mile range.
Interesting thread. Hope I can join in as sub 2.30 is a goal of mine too.
The above 2.29.00 guy is a friend of mine. I know he was regularly doing 80-90miles a week with a max of 115. Some of his key sessions included a 3hr easy run and a 20mile tempo at sub 6min/miling. He would do a '5k pace' track session and a shorter tempo run most weeks. He also did circuit training once a week. He did mostly 'singles'.
I'd like to think I was in sub 2.30 shape this year (did a 1.52.15 20mile in March). However, I had a few problems prior to/during London and only mananged 2.37.23. Training wise I averaged 78mpw from January up to the marathon. Typical week included track and road session on Tuesday and Thursday, race or tempo intervals on Saturday and long run (2hrs+) Sunday. The rest of the week was easy running usually 7 to 8min miling depending how tired I was. I cut and pasted a couple of my biggest weeks below:
M am 5miles easy 38min
Pm 8miles easy 62min
T am –
Pm 9miles including track session – 5 x 4mins off 75seconds, 2min rest, then 5 x 2mins off 75seconds. 4min efforts done at 78secs per lap. 2min efforts done at 75seconds per lap.
W am 5miles easy 38min
Pm 8miles easy 1hr
T am –
Pm 11miles including 2 sets of 8 x 330m hill efforts (~70seconds) with 200m jog down recovery. 530m jog between sets.
F am 5miles easy 38min
Pm 8miles jog 73min (Done with a friend, painfully slow)
S am 10+miles including “tempo interval” track session - 8 x 5minutes off 75second recoveries. All done at 80seconds per lap pace.
Pm 4miles easy 32min
S am 17miles easy 2hr10
pm -
Total = 90miles
M am 5miles easy 36min30
Pm 8miles easy 1hr
T am 4miles easy 30min30
Pm 9miles including track session – 10min effort, 3min rest, 5x 1min off 30seconds, 3min rest, 4 x 2.5min off 75seconds, 3min rest, 5 x 1min off 30seconds. Pace was 80sec per lap for 10min, 76sec per lap for 2.5min and 72sec per lap for 1mins.
W am 5miles easy 38min40
Pm 8miles easy 62min40
T am 4miles easy 31min
Pm 9mile fartlek with ~8 hilly efforts 64min
F am 5miles easy 38min40
Pm 8miles easy 65min20
S am 12miles including 4.8mile tempo in 25min40 (~5min20 miling) 1hr25 total
Pm 6miles easy 46min
S am 19miles (ish) 2hr25.
Pm –
Total = 102miles
So few people get to their maximum weekly mileage that its almost not worth worrying about what it actually is. Rather than think ‘how many miles a week do I need to run to be able to run X time for X distance?’ why not simply ask ‘how good can I become?”
I’m not saying you should never have a target, but I would argue that to be your best you have to become a ‘runner’. There is too much emphasis these days on training for an ‘event’ rather than training to become a better runner. There’s very little difference between training for 1mile and training for 26miles.
So, find your maximum mileage, then start to play around with it. Make your hard runs hard and your easy runs easy. Fit in some hills, then some track reps, and some tempo runs - you probably know all that anyway.
However, don’t get too hung up on weekly mileage totals. We we seem to have gotten away from periodisation. You don't have to do 100mpw every week, week in week out, year in year out. A lot of the great runners from yesteryear did very high mileage, but they also did weeks of very low mileage and that has become overlooked.
What seems to have happened is that someone has looked at the 'average' yearly training of a distance runner and applied it to a weekly total. So, we get schedules that advise X number of miles a week - to include one long run, one set of long reps, one set of short reps. It's not essentially wrong, but nowhere do I read about the 'endurance phase', ‘pre-competition phase’ and ‘competition phase’. There are some good threads on here about base training but no so much about competition training.
Sure, run 100mpw, but not right from the word go and not for ever. Have high mileage weeks and low mileage weeks. Go for a few months without racing, then race three time a week.
Go back to basics. Train long, race short. Why are people trying to run marathon when they’ve never even run a 5k, let alone a 1500m?
You can’t run a good marathon without running a good half. You can’t run a good half without running a good 10k, You can’t run a good 10k without running a good 5k etc.
So, my first suggestion to anyone that wants to run a 2.30 marathon is first of all take a step back.
bazza
I'm sure there will be a few people on the 1500m training thread that would disagree that training for shorter races is the same as for a marathon. I've seen people commenting on JEJ's high mileage in that thread in the past. I think that Mike Gratton has said on his thread that he essentially sacrificed good 10k performances because he targeted marathons.
Marmite
I trained for my first marathon for a long long time. I was suposed to run it in 2007 but a chest infestion put a stop to that. In the end it would have gone badly for me in that year as I would have disregarded the heat and blown up.
I have found expectancy a real performance killer. Since running 72.xx HM I have been targeting 69.xx after all I went from 77.xx down to 72.xx taking 2mins off should be easy right? Well I've run 72.xx 3 times since then but then I ran 71.xx out of the blue no taper, on a hilly course, with no expectations, no ambition to run a pb, I didn't feel like racing on the day and my stomach was upset, none of the usual faster runner turned up so I ran my own race held back at the start and left something for the hills at the end, i didn't look at my match during the race.
I raced clever that day maybe for the first time ever. I didn't race clever at Bath or FLM.
At some point although I will be keeping the mileage up I will need to focus on my 5/10km if I want to get much faster.
I guess being 10 years younger might help as well.
Hadd reckons (oops - this thread could soon descend into Hadd wars 08
), that in order to be the best marathon runner you can be you need to maximise your speed over 800m, then 1500, 3k, 5k etc once you have the aerobic engine ability of a Gobi or a Hilly. Of course, many runners don't match up their 5k speed in a marathon (like me) and therefore need to work on different stuff at times. Just backing up what Gobi said.
Bazza - the people I see mixing the ingredients a little differently to achieve this are still running 80+mpw, ie as much running as they can and just altering the sessions they do to suit that block of training.
Very interesting post Bazza.
I am doing just that for my next mararhon. I.ve got to 2.56 with a 19.04 5k off high mileage . I'd be very surprised to see anyone else with such a tight relationship. I've been told I need to work on that 5k by getting as fast as I can over 800m before I'll be able to improve any more on my marathon.
MM - we're all different running types, eg BR is mainly fast twitch and has a very good LT, hence his relatively good 10k and HM times compared to his marathon and 5k. I on the other hand am mainly slow twitch, although I do have a very high turn of speed over 100m (13 secs flat out - I can beat BR on this) but strugglle with my VO2 max and LT over 10k. I can create lactate very quickly but not clear it at 5k / 10k pace. BR takes ages to build it up and tends to need a long warm up to race well.
Therefore to make progress we need slightly different types of training, as the answers to your questions from Marders, JEJ etc are showing.
Good to see this thread started - I've been reading the sub-2:45 FLM one and am another sub-3 thread regular!
Some of you will know me but in case you don't, I started running about 3 years ago with the ultimate aim of breaking 3 hours. Did that about 6 months later at Chicago 2005 (2:58) but then changed my aims and decided to continue! Since then I've done a marathon every 6 months: Boston 2006 (2:52), Chicago 2006 (2:41), FLM 2007 (2:33), Berlin 2008 (2:29), FLM 2008 (4:17 - I was part of the 48 hour treadmill team!).
Prior to Berlin my HM PB was 72:xx but that was on a pretty warm day on an undulating course running on my own. So I was probably in about 71min shape at the time. Since Berlin I've run 69:33 (overtaken by Marders halfway round!), and am targetting Edinburgh in five weeks for a PB attempt.
Just to back up other comments, the main reason I think I've improved is an increase in mileage. I don't run massive mileage, generally 80ish mpw during marathon training, but get the key sessions in I think (long run every weekend, midweek medium-long "progression" run, tempo (I often use races for these e.g. cross country), long intervals).
My shorter distance PBs are still relatively weak (16:01, 33:07) but that's partly because I haven't raced them for a while, and I'm not that bothered to be honest. I think aerobically I'm pretty good (so far have always converted HM to M around double + 6mins), but I think that comes from years of endurance sport generally rather than running in particular (rowed at university before starting running after uni).
>....best training you can in the time available
Personally finding time is the hardest part of training for me; esp with a (very understanding/supportive) wife who also runs, 3 kids (8 mth, 5 yrs, 12 yrs) and quite a demanding job.
Very interesting post from Bazza; the last time I raced a 800m or 1500m was 19yrs ago (haven't been on a track since) and my short (<5k) racing has been limited to a 12-stage short leg and a 3k relay leg. My friend who ran 2:24 does NO speed work as such, just lots of miles which sometimes includes 5 runs of 2 hrs in a week. He never races at 10k or 5k (or even HM?), but he is a national 24hr champ so coming from an ultra background he maybe the exception.
Coro - exactly, so you've probably got less time available than someone such as myself, so in theory I should be able to train more than you (subject to over-training, injury etc.). Whether that actually happens in practice is another matter...
I'm amazed someone can run 2:24 off that sort of training, because he must never run at (or faster than) MP except in the race. Surely he can't go much quicker without some form of speedwork? He must do tempo runs at least?!
To a lesser extent that is what I do. I very rarely run under 6.30 mile pace but rarely run under 90 miles in a week. Yet my half mara pace is 5.40 and mara 6.13. Most of my time is devoted to base work. I have the time to run more specific training though and may at some point step back from the ultras and give it a more solid shot.
I did run a 4.58 mile last year by training with my sprint group so I guess with application it is possible to improve my short stuff.
G