sub-2:30 marathon

[Deleted User]

So called Arthr King - I'm intrigued as to what sessions you were doing as part of your high mileage training

could you give some example weeks?

[Deleted User]

Yep good question, nothing too amazing, a typical heavy week was along the lines of

Mon - track  1k warm up, 12x400 or 6-8x800 or 6x1k ,1k warm down. Tue - 7 miles hard (home from work). Weds - Same 7 miles. Thurs - track 1k warm up, pyramids 50-100-200-400, 1k warm down. Fri - rest. Sat - steady run circa 6-9 miles or rest if racing. Sun - longer run up to 10-12 miles depending on legs or race 10k - HM.

Of the races done in the build up nothing was over HM, my longest run was a 16 mile plod, second longest was the HM which was pretty sloppy, indeed slower than my half split in the marathon itself!

This was a couple of years ago, it just felt as though my body would have struggled with an extra few hours pounding per week. Funnily now after doing a lot of cycling since I seem to have developed a strength that wasn't there before making it feel more normal to get out and run longer too.

mmmm...marmite

SCAK,
Absolutely stunned that you managed to run 2:38 off the back of what most, I'd suspect, would consider low mileage. If you were minded to gradually increase mileage and focus on the marathon, I've no doubt that you'd be in with a shout for sub-2:20 if you coud nail down a good block of 80-100 mpw.

[Deleted User]

Thanks mmmm, 2.20 is a bit in the back of my dreams but 2:30 is there to be beaten and I'm working on picking up the mileage to see what's possible, first step at NYC in November although I don't expect it to pay full dividends until maybe London next year... think I'll get myself an entry sorted out!

I think in part my situation is quite symbolic of the side topic above on the quality of British distance running, I've always done pretty well without the extra effort but it's a real shame to leave it at that!

[Deleted User]

following on from Tom's post about the National 12-stage in 1979 it is worth noting that same year England won the World X/C champs with this team (I have added some of their PBs)

Julian Goater 5k 13.15.59 10k 27.34.58
Mike McLeod 5k 13.23.26 10k 27.39.76 HM 62.39
Andy Holden 3kS/C 8.26 10k 28.29
Nick Rose 5k 13.18.91 10k 27.31.19 HM 61.03
Bernie Ford 5k 13.26 10k 27.43.74
Nicky Lees 5k 13.33.59 10k 28.18

Meanwhile the British team of 2008 finished 10th with the following team (a selection of their PBs added)
Tom Humphries 5k 13.56 87
Michael Skinner 5k 13.51.61 10m 49.46
Frank Tickner 3ks/c 8.31.40 10k 29.38
Andrew Lemoncello 3ks/c 8.23.74 5k 13.45.69 10k 28.28.04
Andi Jones 10k 29.07 10m 49.07
Phil Wicks 10k 29.33 10m 48.34
Andy Vernon 5k 13.45.35
James Walsh 10k 29.19.42
John Beattie 10k 29.30.88

The point here is that while in 1979 there were few Africans around it is clear that we are not as good as we used to be not just in relative terms but in absolute terms. Of the current crop of runners only Lemoncello has track times that compare favourably with those of 30 years ago - Farah obviously is top class but didn't run this year's race.

Also, bear in mind that the 1979 team didn't include the likes of Brendan Foster - or Steve Ovett who finished 4th in the National in 1978, nor the likes of Welshman Steve Jones or Scotsman Nat Muir. Nor the team include a whole load of other top guys that ran in the 79 12-stage such as...

Steve Kenyon 10k 28.20 10m 46.43 HM 61.31 Mar 2.11.40
John Graham Mar 2.09.28
John Davies 10k 28.18
Ray Smedley 10k 28.24.15
Steve Emson 5k 13.28.99 10k 28.34.75
Colin Moore 10k 28.13.13 10m 47.10 HM 62.22

Times certainly have changed...

[Deleted User]

anyway - most the problems - and potential solutions - have been discussed already but I will say that as there is less depth than previously it is more than ever that those who are willing and able to commit themselves to hard, long-term training are able to do so together. I think we need to develop a training and competition structure which ensures that the best we have work together and race against each other more frequently - I would even go so far as to suggest that we need to completely overhaul the existing format of club competition.

[Deleted User]

Wow.  Last post in this thread over a year ago?

 Is anyone still trying to run a fast marathon?

 Is there an alternative thread that I have missed?

I'm not trying for a 2:30, but maybe a 2:45 - is there a decent thread that anyone could link?

If not.... let's resurrect this gem.

PhilPub

Hi Purdy,

Thanks for reminding me about this thread, very interesting reading.  You might want to pop in to the sub 3 thread for a chat.  A few contributors from here and generally runners ranging from sub-3 aspirants to much, much quicker.  (I'm somewhere in the middle, pb 2:44.  2:30... one day!)  Which marathon are you doing?

[Deleted User]

marmite (a few posts above) is gunning for a sub-2:30 at Berlin this weekend.

I'll be giving it a go at London next year, providing I can stay illness-free this winter.

[Deleted User]

Thanks for the link Phil.

 Probably going to try the (inaugural) Brighton marathon in April next year.

[Deleted User]

Brilliant read guys, Very interesting and thanks to all who contributed

Philip Melling 2

And 9 years later than most of the posts has there been much change in the training methods for a sub 2.30 marathon?
I'm really wondering about trying for a fast (for me, 2h40-2h30) 2018 London marathon. 

Cheerful Dave

I doubt it, PM2.  You could learn a lot reading back here, or the still active (just about) sub 3 or 3:15 threads.  Lots of advice on both of those, and at the end of the day the basics on how to get the best time you can are pretty much the same whether that's 2:29 or 2:59.

ML84

I didn't know there was a sub 2.30 thread. 
Hoping to have a crack this year at Yorkshire. 

Philip Melling 2

Yes I've read through the thread and there is some really good stuff in there. Most of the opinions are fairly consistent and only small details vary. By the sound of it 70 plus miles,  with a mix of steady, tempo and marathon paced efforts, a medium long run and a long run.
Sounds easy! 

HA77

Strange. I was just reading this old thread last week, thinking about resurrecting it and now here it is. I'm planning on having a crack at Abingdon. I'm not sure I'll be quite there yet but hoping to learn something, then have another go at London next year. 

My training plan is not probably not typical. I'll be happy if I can average 60 mpw and my biggest day is usually a double session day on Wednesday. I tend to do lots of tempo and fartlek runs around MP/HMP.

Philip Melling 2

Fair play, is Abingdon quick? I have come from doing time trialling and duathlon in the last few years so I need to build up some running base (probably only ran 30 miles average recently). I am hoping to start a 18 week marathon plan from December so need to get miles in before then to have a decent starting point. I'm not sure at present whether I will hold up to the higher mileage (I've never trained done 55 miles a week before) that will be needed to run near 2h30, but I'm prepared to give it a go before I get too old!

HA77

Philip - I've never run Abingdon before. I believe it's quick but not too many running at 2:30 pace. I think one of the big advantages of London would be the other people around you trying to run 2:30 as well.

Is this going to be your first marathon? Ambitious target if it is, good to see. What are your other PBs? I'm a bit the same in that it's something I want to do before I get too old (turning 40 in a few months).

Philip Melling 2

No, I did London 9 years ago in 2h40, but went through half way in 1h14 and suffered in the last 6. I have never trained specifically for the marathon so never put in the big miles to finish strong, which I hope to be able to do in the next 9 months. I did the British Duathlon Championships this year and ran the 9.3 miles at 5m23 pace as well as cycling the 24 miles at 27mph so I think the speed is there. I know I will need to really work on the speed endurance for the mararthon. I have just turned 42, so maybe out of time already!

HA77

That's an impressive base from which to start. I'd think you've got plenty of time if you've still got that sort of pace over 10ish miles.

Cheerful Dave

Don't rule it out duets age Philip.  I ran my PB at 42, at a time when I was still trying to be competitive at duathlons.  Not as competitive as you though, so I see no reason why you shouldn't be able to get there. 

Don't underestimate the benefit you'll have from all that cycle training - if you ran a marathon now off your 30 mpw you'd do a lot better than you would have without the cycling.  Also bear in mind that your biggest risk as you increase mileage is injury, more so since you're a bit older than most following a 2:30 plan.  If you're feeling any twinges, getting out on the bike rather than running regardless 'because that's what the plan says' is probably an idea.

Philip Melling 2

Thanks Dave,  I am hoping to continue to do about 3 hours riding a week as cross training and also so I don't loose all the cycle fitness for the future. With 6-8 hours running hopefully that will be enough. 
I think I will buy the "advanced marathoning" book as it seems a really good resource.

HA77

I did the P&D advanced marathoning plan (mostly the 18 week, 55-70 mile plan) for last year's Manchester marathon and ran 2:40. It's definitely a good place to start and following the plan gave me confidence that i was doing the right thing. This year for London i did my own thing with bits of P&D and got my time down to 2:34. Hopefully i can find a few more minutes this time around.

Considering your background, I think you'll go well with 6-8 hours of running then the riding on top.

Philip Melling 2

HA, how many carbs do you try to take on in a marathon? Somewhere in the region of 100-150 carbs I guess would be best? I'm not sure how best to take them and carry them.

ML84

I usually take a gel at 5-6 miles then every 30 mins or so after. Always have some water at every station too. 

HA77

Philip - I think gels are a minor detail compared to the rest of the training. You've got plenty of time to see how many gels you can tolerated when running at MP. Last time I had 6 gels. Carried 3 (strapped to my hand with a rubber band) which I took at about 3.5, 7, 10 miles. There were gels on the course just past half way, where I grabbed 2, one I took straight away, the other at about 17 miles. Then I took one at the other gel station at about 21 miles. Not sure I needed that many but it didn't harm me. 

If you have questions about the advanced marathoning plans, there's a P&D thread (where I usually post) where people might be able to give you some advice. Even if you don't following one of the P&D plans, feel free to come over and post on the thread.

Philip Melling 2

Thanks, 6 sounds about right as that's about 130-140g of carbs. 

I was wondering,  when doing a long training run at marathon pace plus 30 seconds for example, should these be on goal marathon pace or a rough marathon pace at the present time. For me there is quite a difference between what my marathon time would be now compared to what I hope it will be in 8 months.