Howdy, Stranger!
Categories
Options
sub-2:30 marathon
The materials in this website are in no way intended to replace the professional medical care, advice, diagnosis or treatment of a doctor, qualified personal trainer, therapist, dietitian or nutritionist Runners's World, Part of the Hearst UK well-being network © Copyright 2017
Comments
MtR - Aiming to be back for the Dome race, if I can manage 5km by then. Very busy at work in a different to usual location which is taking most of my free time at the moment, so not even cycling at the moment. Baby cow seems to be making progress, but the other one is stiff today.
morgrunning - I'll cast my memory back to Sep 2007 - it's some time ago so memory of exact splits and paces are fading, but I'll try. This was the very end of my T&F season and I hadn't even thought about marathons in 18 months:
01/09 (Sat) - 6.7miles (tired), 7.7 miles with grass strides
S: 1hr 24 slow, 37mins slow
M: 41mins steady, 36mins steady
T: 34mins steady, track for 10 x 400 (200) in 67, 68, 67, 67, 68, 68, 68, 67, 69, 71
W: 36mins slow
T: 34mins steady, pm - long warmup, then 2.9M hilly race in 14:36, long wd
F: 43mins steady - feeling tired
S: 5.5 miles - tired
S: 2M wu, 10km road in 32:49 (16:10 at 5km), 2M wd. PM 6M steady - felt great
M: 42mins steady, 45mins steady
T: 34mins steady, 9M inc 4 x mile in 4:55, 4:53, 4:54, 5:11 off 400m in 95s jog
W: 47mins steady, 1hr12 steady
T: 36mins steady, pm 7.5M inc 10 x 400 starting in 71, working down to 67
F: 43mins steady, 47mins steady - tired
S: 14 mile inc hill session
S: 1hr24 slow, 5.5M easy
M: 41mins steady, 35mins steady to fast
T: 32mins @ 6min miles
W: long wu, 3km race in 8:54 (km splits approx 2:55, 2:58, 3:00), long wd. Felt really comfortable.
T: 33mins steady (fastish), pm track for 10 x 300 in 50 - 51s)
F: 33mins steady
S: long wu, won 1M race in 4:43 (pulled massive gap by half way and cruised mid section - overall slower than 3km pace!), long wd
S: 1hr15 steady - feeling like cold is coming on
M: 39mins quite fast, 5.5 miles pm - sore throat
T: 39mins quite fast, pm - moved house, 3.7M - sore throat & cold symptoms
W: 4.8M into work (got lost), 39mins fastish. Very cold
T: 32mins quick, 5.2M easy - suffering with flu
F: 41mins steady - cold clearing
S: 33mins @ 6's - cruising well but still full of cold
S: 3M wu, 10km in 32:04 (1600m splits of 5:00, 5:01, 5:07, 5:10, 5:13, 5:08, 71s), 3M wd
Thread's gone quiet.
Well, if anyone's interested I did Bracknell HM yesterday, intended to be at marathon effort. Result was 73:49, and it felt fine until mile 10 when the guy I was running with started slowing down so I put in a quick mile and then relaxed again after mile 11! Probably slightly harder than marathon effort, but not much, it wasn't a fast course and I'd done my highest mileage week for over 6 months.
So overall fairly pleased, hopefully 73-73:30 halfway in Edinburgh should feel OK. Also won a lot of Sweatshop vouchers, so need to find something to spend them on!
Sounds like a good run Padams, well done.
Great run Padams.
Looking good for a blisteringly quick one in Edinburgh. Looking forward to hearing how you get on. Keep us posted.
Guys
I live in your shadows......I would love to be that quick !
My Mara PB is 3:42 and would like to get down to sub 3:30. Although this is a walking pace to you guys I believe and the tips here on improvement still apply in my case. It really is a case of running more - I think the biggest MONTH I ever ran was in my Mara PB year when I ran 156 miles, my last Mara I was only in the low hundreds every month.
I have a guaranteed London 09 so want to build a good base to start Mara training around October time. Hope to be logging consistant 25 - 40 miles week until then (with one easy week a month of about 25 miles)
Probably a boring post but I love to read threads like these so I thought I would pop in anyway...OK you can get back to the sharp end now !
MM where you the Notts runner who went surgin’ past me at around 7 miles in the East Hull 20 several weeks ago ?
FWIW, my progress aint anywhere near as good as Marders, BEJ and Padams.
Started around 4 years ago aged 31, and about 2 and a bit years ago decided to take it serious. Run around 40 mile per week last 2 years, but managed around 55 average Jan – Mar for my first marathon, FLM 2 weeks ago in 2:33:01.
Ran an even split, and went on the more cautious side of risk taking with it being the first marathon, although who’s to say by doing the first half a minute quicker I wouldn’t have been 20 minutes slower overall. TBH I was actually targeting a slight positive split, and reckoned I’d end up with 2:34, but there you go.
HM’s beforehand were Brass Monkey in Jan 71:17 (pancake flat, mini-tapered, but very windy), then Ackworth in mid March in 72:31 (undulating, even windier, and un-tapered, with a high mileage week of 65 that week.) So these circumstances I guess correspond to those listed at the start of the thread, as just about everyone will have been un-tapered and racing in the wind. I’d like to think that tapered, on the right course, with the reet conditions I could have run around a 70:30 HM, and I know that the guy you have on the 1st post (BR’s mate) who ran 71:26, I suspect in the right circumstances he’d have busted a sub 70 pre FLM, he definitely seemed to be running well enough.
My objective in the next 2 and a half years is to do 2 more marathons, with one hopefully sub 2:30.
On the what mileage should I do to do a marathon in xxx, I agree, it’s a bit of a nonsense question. There are others who’ve done better than me, and done more mileage, but I reckon I’d be injured now if I tried the same, as I aint as durable as say BEJ, whos done more in the same amount of time, and thus deserves more out of it.
Was looking at La Rochelle marathon as one to do, anyone done that one ? and if so whats it like ?
3:30 or bust,
IMHO it is almost entirely down to training, weight nutrition and rest. My marathon debut in 1995 was run in 3:54, so over the last 13 years I've managed to take 80mins off that. Have hit several plateaus along the way, one around the 3:30 mark and another when trying to get under 2:50. In both of those cases, improvements were brought about by doing more miles and training "smarter". So if you have the dedication and the motivation you can certainly run much quicker than you ever thought possible.
DFC,
I did do the East Hull 20. Ran the first 5M steady and then did 15M @ ~marathon pace through to the end.
Superb run at London mate. Clocking a 2:33 debut is a fantastic achievement especially on the back of what most would regard as modest mileage. Your pre-London HM times certainly indicated that you were on for a good one. In terms of tolerance to higher mileage, Ive certainly found that over the years I've been able to gradually increase my training load. Suspect you'll find the same thing and if you chose to go that route that you could run way under 2:30 in light of the training that you did this year to achieve 2:33.
Love this thread I'm also can only dream of the sort of pace you guys run at. I do have a couple of questions for you though.
As you run such high mileage do you make any changes to your diet/take supplements etc... to help you handle the mileage? Also what are your opinions on sports masage and stretching do you guys stretch and have sports massages regularly to help cope with the punishment you put your bodies through?
DFC - If you lose your remaining 3 stone then you will be reet fast given the right wind conditions
marmite - didn't realise you came from the lofty heights of nearly 4 hours, quite an impressive jump down to the 230s. Good to see some real life proof for those thinking getting faster is beyond them. A bit of hard work and self belief can go a long way.
330 - You might have to change your name sooner than you think! I have no doubt that an increase in mileage will go a long way, just have to be careful not to over do it. Agree also that the tips etc on here will help at different levels so use what works or feels right for you (and any other lurkers).
PITF - I eat loads more. Nothing special, just more food and more often really. Have to be careful with this though as as soon as the mileage drops down the weight creeps on quickly as I like food too much (becomes a habit to just eat!). The only supplement I have been taking regularly is Glucosamine. It's more of a placebo now as it was for my dodgy knee that came about by increasing mileage too quickly (had to try anything to help) - if it helps me now then cool, if not, then I have wasted a fiver or 2. Only ever had one proper sports massage about 4 years ago - mainly cos I had a dodgy knee back then too (shoes too old this time)! My flexibility is carp so I probably should stretch more (a lot more?)... It's amazing the punishment your body can take and adjust to over time - I just keep dishing it out and it's generally ok about it!
mmmm....marmite and marders
Thanks for taking the time to reply...... I have started a similar thread for sub 3:30 - nicked your idea mmmm...marmite hope you dont mind. Following my thread and this one closely for tips and pointers, and marders I hope your right about the name change ! Agree about not overdoing the mileage increase...a bit embarrased to say ran only 20 miles last week so will try to go to 24/25 this week
I take a multi vit everyday, Gloucosamine and Flax seed oil as well. I am really pumped up to get 3:30 next spring - a long way off but reading these threads is a great motivator so will keep reading and posting
Yours in awe 3:30
paininthefoot - I don't take any supplements, but like marders, eat loads (more or less every 2-3 hours I have a snack or meal). The trick is to find something you can snack on which is reasonably healthy. I have tried to change my diet slightly just by reducing obviously bad things and making a couple of small changes e.g. wholemeal bread instead of white, semi-skimmed milk instead of full-fat. Still need one bar of chocolate a day though!
Don't do any stretching really, and never had a massage other than once when I went to the physio for a sore knee (marders and I are different people, honest). Don't really enjoy massages and don't feel I would get any benefit really. As I've built the mileage gradually I find the thing stopping me from training more (apart from lack of time) is general tiredness rather than sore legs.
330 - good luck with the training for FLM09, sounds like you're ready to put in the effort and I'm sure you'll get the result you want. You never know what's possible, just look at how far marmite has come.
paininthefoot - I also do no stretching of note, maybe just when I have a niggle. I do have the occasional sports massage (varies from every 2-3 weeks to every 2-3 months) - I'm not sure about the physical benefit but it does help being able to switch off for an hour while I get told (again) that I'm very unflexible. On the supplements side, I take a 1000mg vit-C tablet each day + something that claims to boost your immunity. Again, I'm not sure how much real benefit these provide but it has become something of habit but I have managed to avoid any serious cold/flu for the past 2 years (I have 3 kids so I think I get exposed to quite a few nasty things). I try to stick to healthy food and avoid stuff which is too fatty/rich - one downside of running that I don't like is that I can no longer enjoy 'bad' food without feeling guilty (but I'm a sucker for a crumble which is often the hot dessert at work for lunch!). When I'm running high mileage I often have a second breakfast. After my long runs I use ReGo as a recovery drink.
330 - Gradually increase your mileage + add some quality sessions and you will soon have to start a whole bunch of new threads (3:20, 3:10 ....)
Marmite - I'm seriously impressed by how you have got your time down from being a 4hr runner to looking to go sub-230, that shows a lot of dedication.
My FLM reverse taper is nearly complete; week 1 = 39M; week 2 = 55M; this week will be ~mid 70's. I found that I faded badly at the end of my long leg at the 12-stage last Sat and during the last couple of 1k reps yesterday, I hope this is only a hangover from FLM. My summer racing doesn’t have too much focus at the moment partly because of family and partly because I'm travelling to US, France, Germany and Italy for work. I have the occasional 10k race in our local league but I'm targeting GER in Oct as a HM PB attempt (70:xx?) + I'm still looking for a fast 10k in the autumn.
lol marders. I'm 3 stone now? How did you know I'd put weight on ?
PITF. For someone so light, I've surprisingly always eaten a lot, but obviously through running I eat even more, at school I was known as "boney M", and yet ate more than the fat kid.
Generally I eat every hour, but now I take the running serious, I eat better foods overall particularly whilst at work, lots of fruit, decent sarnies, malt loaf, etc, so I have plenty but the mix at work is healthier than it used to be. Still have fast food once or twice a week, but I aint a professional athlete so dont consider it worth it to 100% change to a healthy diet, but overall I mostly eat well and plenty.
The only supplement I take really is Echinacea a few weeks building up to a race, which is more to do with paranoia of getting ill than owt else. It probably does bugger all.
Only after really hard sessions, I have SIS rego, as I got a rollocking off a physio, for not putting something with the right balance in straight after a hard session to repair the muscles and she should know, as she was physio at FLM for Lel and co, so I presume she knows a tad more than me.
I only go to the physio, if I have an injury, or feel like somewhere is refusing to loosen up, say its been getting worse over a week or so, and I feel it might develop into a problem. Dont bother with massages, but do stretch for 4-5 minutes after most runs. Could do more, probably should do more, but as with most runners don't do enough stretching until it feels like something might be becoming a problem.
MM I guess the modest mileage comes mostly, as I hadn't targetted a marathon before, and didnt see volume as being priority before. I plan to change this gradually over the next couple of years, so long as the body holds up and time permits. Looking into the future with a bit of luck I see, an average of 75-80 mpw being the optimum for moi for a marathon schedule, but who knows. Ditto Coros comments on the perseverance you've shown in getting from 4 hours to 2:34.
Some great advice on here... sub 2.30 I think is beyond me but I think sub 2.40 is possible...I've learnt alot from reading these comments and plan to:
- increase mileage from 40-50 mpw to 65ish ( i think that is all reasonably I will be able to fit in
- increase quality of sessions
I ran my first marathon at FLM in 2007 and got 2.55 of about 40 -50 pw ( starrting from a base of 15mpw in the Dec before) but I did no tempo / marathon paced running so plan to fix that for 2009..
Also plan to take advice and work on getting my 5k / 10k times down over the summer..thanks all for posting great advice..I'll hang around on this thread as I agree that the methods mentioned here will help me.. cheers
Ok, so this is the plan we've (BB, CH & mmmm....m) decided upon. Please feel free to provide frank and unfeterred feedback regarding whether you think this will yield the results we're chasing.
Brief bit of background, BB ran 2:34 at FLM 2007, but has run a 71:30 half since then and was on for sub-2:30 this year until he had to pull out mid-race. CH is a talented aussie runner. He just lacks focus and discipline, but I think the thought of being caught with his pants down and experiencing a couple of his slower training mates beat him to a sub-2:30 might galvanise him into action this time around. Marmite, you know me. I've always been slow. I'm a bit les slow than I used to be now and I'm willing to throw absolutely everything onto the fire in a bid to clock a sub-2:30 before it becomes an impossibility owing to the relentless advancement of time. I'll be a V40 in July '09, so it's definitely time to get my finger out. Current PB is 2:34, so need to take off ~10 sec/mile.
The three of us are of a mind that a focus on high mileage coupled with aerobic/tempo/threshold sessions will deliver the goods. To that end, we're thinking that a slight variant of "the summer of malmo" will give us what we need.
We're planning on structuring the week along these lines:
Mon: a.m. 5M easy; p.m. 6M steady
Tue: a.m. 5M easy; p.m. 12M incl. 4-6M tempo
Wed: a.m. 5M easy; p.m. 6M steady
Thu: a.m. 5M easy; p.m. 4-6 x 1200-2000m at 10k -10M pace off 2/3 duration recoveries
Fri: a.m. 5M easy; p.m. 6M steady
Sat: 7-8M easy with 12-16 x 150-300m striders with ful recovery
Sun: 18-21M steady
Plan is to alternate the Thurs evening session listed above with a 13-16M progression run.
Thoughts?
MM - without commenting directly on the type of session you propose, for some running 3 harder sessions on Thurs, Fri, Sat would be a big ask as that is the end of the working week for many where work pressures, tiredness etc has built up. I like to try and pack in harder runs earlier in the week and on Saturday as on Thursday and Friday I'm quite tired from work.
Do most of the faster runners on here take a down week every 3 or 4 weeks?
BR,
Thanks for your feedback. Think I mistyped the previous posting. Have amended it. The 3 quality sessions of the week are Tue, Thu and Sun. The strides on a Saturday are intended to be a purely "neuromuscular" workout (i.e. no lactate, full recovery between each stride).
What are your plans for the year? Why don't you join us in Amsterdam? There's a sub-2:30 in your legs for sure, it's just a matter of maximising your aerobic capacity.
cheers
Marmite,
There's, what, 22 weeks until Amsterdam? I'd be more inclined to split the build up into 10 / 10 / 2 with a target race (5 - 10M) after the first 10. I feel that doing the same type of training for 20-odd weeks (which is probably not dissimilar to your pre-London buildup) isn't the providing your body with the best range of training stimuli and without progression may lead to staleness.
You still have endurance from London, so I'd use the first 10 to get down to 32:30ish 10km shape, which seems to be the consensus for the necessary speed for a sub 71 / 2:30. During this period 2hr runs should be sufficient - which should cover about 18M anyway, so still within your 18 - 21 range. Having a mid 32 behind you will give lots of confidence for the necessary tempo running later in the schedule... To run 40 mins at threshold (71min HM pace) you have to go through 10km in sub 34 feeling pretty good.
In the next block of 10 is for the specific marathon training, the final 2 (or 3) obviously taper time. Your week plan itself seems like balanced marathon training to me.
Anyway - here's a question for you all. How marathons have you run and in what (number) race did you run your PB?
I'm going to guess it was quite early on...
So, Bazza'a running tips:
number 485. How you run today is a product of every run you've ever done
but equally
number 486: You only have so many 'good' miles in your legs. Pick your races carefully.
bazza - I've run 6 marathons and each one has been a PB. Would be nice to continue this trend but I expect it will stop at some point!
Marmite - that week looks pretty good to me, but as BEJ said, you might want to tweak it depending on the time to goal race, and also have a slight cutback every 4th week or so.
bazza,
I've run 12 marathons over the last 13 years. Results as follows:
3:54, 3:34, 3:27, 3:27, 3:29, 3:17, 3:09, 3:24, 2:56, 2:52, 2:43, 2:34
Like Padams, I expect the trend will cease at some point, but it would be very nice if I could get under 2:30 before that happens.
padams, jej,
thanks for the feedback. will tweak things a bit to focus on 10k/10M for first 10 weeks
gobi,
congrats on the PB. How on earth did you manage to go from a 17:06 5k on 03/05 to a 33:14 10k on 05/05 with a 26mile run sandwiched in between the two??????? Do you know a bloke called Victor Conte by any chance???
Bazza
I have run 40 races of marathon or Longer since 2005
Marathons races at numbers 39 and 40 were both PBS
My last 3 marathons have been 2.43.09 2.43.07 2.40.36 - All within 3 months last 2 were 2 weeks apart.
hmmm... fair play to you guys.
I shall come back later with a new theory!
Interesting times there Mm. You've made some real improvements over the years. I bet you trained too fast at all your runs for those first lot
Well done to Padams and Gobi.
So here is a question (especially in the light of gobi's recent success) does tappering really provide any significant benefit? I've run PBs on the back of no tapering and lack luster performances when I've tapered. (I'm talking about sub marathon distances here)
Marmite, BR Why are you both running another marathon so soon? Wouldn't it be better to wait and reduce your times in shorter distances before commiting to another marathon?