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Talkback: Lucozade Sport Super Six: Andy (sub-4:00)
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Hi all,
Good to see there has been some running, even it was on the treadmills. I have done 2 x 6 mile sessions this week, both on the treadmill due to the lovely Yorkshire weather, club had an offroad run yesterday, but I couldn't get the car there! Was hoping to get a run in tomorrow ... but son #1 has just told me it's snowing again ... and yep it is! so could be another treadmill day.
Can't think of any excuses for running on boxing day, one of the benefits of being single I guess, boys are now old enough to leave in bed, and being teenagers, will still be there when I get back!
I don't have a garmin all my mileage is calc'd either by mapmyrun or driving around in the car, had a Nike+ bought for my birthday in November, but am yet to try it out
Happy Christmas Eve all.
Andy, I agree with Lamkjo that you should be on a 3:15 plan. You seem to be really fast, and with the coaching and experts from Lucozade you will finish in under 4 with flying colours.
Myself, I followed the 3.45 plan for Garmin for my last marathon (Vienna this year in April). I managed to cover most of the sessions in the indicated time, but I did struggle at times with the faster runs. However, I did not manage to do the 45:00 10k which they say you should be able to do to aim for a 3.45 marathon. My best 10k time so far is 50 minutes. So... still lot of hard training to put in.
In the meantime I am rubbing in Biofreeze on my knee and ice it in the evenings, and will really try to give it a rest. I know that is the best, but at the same time, is so hard to let go...
Kitty - you don't need to put too much weight on getting the times for those shorter races. Some of us just aren't fast! Last year my 10K pb was 47 mins with a marathon pb of 3.33.
I reckon you'll run sub-3.30 too, Andy. I hope those training for sub-4.00 and faster don't feel too demoralised when you start posting your training times!
Let's hope this weather means we'll have perfect training conditions for when the schedules start in the New Year.....
well done on all the training.
I agree Andy has the potential to run well inside 4 hours but it would be foolhardy, when he has relatively little distance training behind him, and zero marathon experience, to aim too high on the first one.
Unfortunately most first time marathoners underachieve, mostly by aiming too high, and the first marathon should be an experience to enjoy thinking you can run faster next time than a horrific experience caused by trying to run faster than the body is ready to go.
It's not just newcomers who underachieve either. My guess if if you took most of the runners between 4:00 and 4:10, you'd find the vast majority were expecting to run 3:30-3:50.
Yes with good schedules, great training and help, and a smart racing strategy then fulfilling your potential is achievable.
However while someone say with a 1:45 half marathon should run well inside 4:00, most don't, and the reason most don't is that they have unrealistic targets and insufficient experience to acheive.
Once we are a few months into the schedule and Andy has a few more races under his belt and we can assess how is coping with those long sunday runs, we can assess what a realistic target is.
It is possible though that though Andy has a faster 5K time than many on his thread that won't mean a thing when the distance is almost 10 ten times as far!
Thanks Steve, I guess by following this thread we can work out if we have underachieved? The reason i ask is I did 4:15 this year following a RW program, this year I would like to go nearer to sub 4, but don't want to kill myself in the process.
Looks like another treadmill day today!
Morning and Happy Xmas to you All
Thankyou for making this a very popular thread. Over 1100 hits and 126 contributions in only six days. Good work my friends. Tidy.
A few posts have mentioned that based on my recent treadmill 5k splits I'm going to be able to do a marathon in some kind of elite time. For clarifcation I've never gone beyond 13.1m and I've only done that once! Speed over 5K (and artificially on a treadmill only) may indicate potential for the future i guess but i have three simple clear aims for VLM 2010:
Finish
Go Sub 4
Learn how to train properly for years to come
If I do 3.59:59 I will be delighted. My race day strategy will be based on achieving this. There is no way I'll be going off quickly as I've no idea how my body will react at the dreaded 20 mile point. I've got a mate who has done the last three Londons. He is faster than me over shorter distances yet has never cracked 4. In 2009 he collapsed at 22miles and took 90 mins to do the last 4.2miles. In a nutshell respect the distance, don't assume and be realistic especially fellow first timers out there.
If you have not already done so read Coach Steve's last post. Wise words indeed from the pro! Follow his advise all. unlike me he's knows what he is talking about!
Gemma - I too had been wondering about how to fit races into my schedule. I want to do a local 10K on a day that is supposed to be 13 miles (a lower mileage week by that point) and I thought it would probably be ok to race the 10K with a couple of miles warm up and down to make it up to about 10 miles. What do you all think?
I've also had to abandon some of the other race plans I have as they just don't fit into the schedule ie a half marathon on the day that I need to do 1 of 2 20 milers so I can't really scrimp there and I don't fancy having to run around an area I don't know to add the extra.
Fiona J: Welcome to the thread.
I'm in the same boat as you in not knowing how to mix races with the schedule where the distances don't tally. My guess is that this also applies to most followers of this thread. Following an initial chat with Steve he gave me the impression that you cant beat races for judging how the training is going. Maybe a shorter race is equal to a longer training run to a degree? I'm guessing balance is the key ie follow the schedule in principal rather than religiously.
Stay tuned as I will be covering this point during the schedule. I'm doing two half marathons in consecutive weeks in March (Reading and Dorney Lake). Thinking ahead this seems alot but is actually less mileage compared to the schedule. I'm going to work out my planned races over xmas and then invite the forum (and coach Steve obviously) to pass on much needed advice.
In summary you've raised a great point and it will be covered on this thread. Stay tuned.
Yes, there is room for the occasional 10K instead of long run and it's possible to switch weeks round occasionally. A few miles warm up, a 10K race and a few miles warm down produces 10 miles in total and probably the same sort of endurance that a longer slower run will provide. However, you do need to do the very longest runs, but they don't have to be on the same weeks the schedule suggests.
The schedules, while great in principle, cannot fit everyone's individual circumstance, race and training pllan and requirements.
Hopefully the adaptation is where the forum (and coaches) can hellp guide everyone.
Two half marathons in successive weeks is not really ideal in some ways in that it does affect the training in the week between and after the second race. Having said that, not necessarily by design but circumstances, one runner I coached did half-marathon PBs two weeks running on two different occasions with a second at Fleet followed by a win at Reading and then 9 years later a third at Bath/British Championships, followed by a win at Paddock Wood the following week. Though it worked here, that was an experienced runner and it might be in one of the races you target a PB and the other one a marathon pace one and add miles to before and after.
Yes, races are great (and I am someone who has pretty much averaged 50 races a year for 40 years) but with marathons, the most important factor is the long steady run, which everything else needs to be built around. I got around this by doing quite lot of Saturday cross-country races in the Winter but that's not everyone's cup of tea.
Hi All
Fitted in a cheeky treadmill 10k on the way home from work. A year ago today, almost to the hour, I took up running by signing up for Reading HM and then went for a pathetic wheezy jog around my local park. About 1km and nearly passed out at the end of it. Had to honour the anniversary. Had to.
Time: 43.06 10K on Treadmill
Varied the speed including the following mile splits:
Mile 1 8.15 (12kph on treadmill . It starts really slowly for about 15 secs.
Mile 2 6.02 (16kph) Mental and unsustainable
!
Mile 3 7.23 (13kph)
Mile 4 6.27 (15kph)
Mile 5 6.54 (14kph)
Mile 6 6.34 (400m at 14,14.5, 15,15.5 kph)
Pretty pleased really but was really pumped given the personal significance of the day to me. My biggest challenge is slowing down and sustaining effort so that I can do 26.2m.
Happy Xmas All.
AndyV
I wish everybody a Merry Christmas and hope that your wishes come true for 2010! I am on my 4th day resting and although frustrating, I know it's for the best. I just hope that by January the 18th when I am back to the UK I am well and fit and haven't lost most of my fitness level. As I am currently doing (or was, until this week) 20 - 22 k each Sunday, besides 3 other runs, I hope that I will somehow get back on track in a couple of weeks. I have packed my running kit, and will probably head out for 1 run/week, whilst I am on holiday with hubby.
BTW - holiday is 1 week in NY, 1 Week in Pittsburgh to watch the Stanley Cup champions playing on Melon Arena, and a 3rd week in Washington. NHL all the way! ... and lots of shopping in NY, of course... running shoes I'm talking
Awesome, sounds like your going to have a great time. Enjoy and keep in touch. You'll catch up on missed training if any with ease given your base fitness/training regime.
Andy - 2nd, and 4th-6th miles were quick - yes need to make sure you don't run fast when you don't need to.
Kitty - sure the rest (from running) will do you good and you will come back in the new year better for it.
It may take a few weeks to get back the fitness but once back in training, the speed and stamina will soon return.
merry xmas everyone - 5 minutes too early...
Kitty - sounds like a fab holiday!
Andy - did 5 miles on the TM today in 43 mins so you are about a mile ahead of me already
Have the Brass Monkey 1/2 at the end of Jan, although I don't think I have ever done as much running in Dec as I have this year ........ and I don't think that is enough to get me to sub 4, coach at club says I should be doing 50m pw .. currently about 30! will do what i need to do from Jan.
Back to wrapping prezzies .......... hope Santa is good to you all
A x
Hope everybody had a good Christmas.
I managed a 4 mile run yesterday, although it was a bit slippy in places. The bonus of running on Christmas day is that there is very little traffic so you can run on the road which is usually less icy! And by the way I wasn't the only one out either!!!
Ang - 50+ miles a week sounds scary doesn't it.
I'm working today, but I might go to the gym when I'm finished for a bit of weights and core stuff.
My training is on hold until Tuesday when I am bk in london as the snow here isn't melting. got out for 15 mins yesterday - got too excited about my new trainers!
hope everyone is having a good xmas.
Well, I managed to escape for an easy 13 miler today without having to resort to deception. The joys of having a supportive wife and occupied children. The ground was still icy in places but it was a beautiful day to run.
Still managing my ITB issues (I had big ITB problems a year ago but have managed the condition since) as had a bit of a recurrence in November. Interestingly I didn't suffer with ITBS at all during marathon training but it came back 3 weeks after the race. I have to be careful not to train too hard on successive days. Therefore, my last marathon preparation was based on 3 to 4 runs a week plus 1 or 2 swimming sessions.
I have a 15 mile race in 4 weeks so I'm doing ok.
You definitely do not need 50 miles a week to break four hours.
No harm doing that much if you have the time, committment, fitness, health and energy but many thousands of runners have broken four on less than 40.
Happy xmas all. Got to be quick as we have the outlaws round and none of them know i'm on the computer upstairs.
Steve: Glad to hear I've not got to regularly clock up 50 miles. Not sure I've got the time (kids,job etc) to commit to 50 miles every week.
King Rich glad you got out mate. Nice one me too. Excuse my lack of brain and ignorance but what is ITB?
todays run details:
6.25m (10k i think) outdoors on an undulating road course. Did it in 45:56 with 7/10 effort i guess.
Mile 1 7.01
Mile 2 7.29
Mile 3 7.48
Mile 4 7.28
Mile 5 7.19
Mile 6 7.03
Felt awesome running outside at last. Have to admit i'm loving the garmin 405. I wanted to run 10k but had no idea where to run as staying at the outlaws house. Just set off and was guided distance wise by GPS. Really cool. Gotta go chat later.
Hi folks!... well that's xmas done for another year - hope all was well with that? Any useful running gifts from santa?
Now that the snow's thawing, very keen to step up the runs - a definite must, given the xmas indulgences and seeing as i've got a 5 miler on the 3rd Jan.
Steve or fellow forumites... I have a question.
The word on the street is that the main test for marathon 1st timers is how they'll cope from 20 miles onwards. From the Garmin sub 4 schedule and most others alike, the schedule gradually builds up to long runs of 20 miles maxing out at 22 miles once. From what i've heard, it is not recommended to run more than 22 miles or 3 1/2 hours whichevers the lesser. Now, during my 1st half marathon I was unable to run the whole distance due to lack of endurance (I had not been past 10 miles in training in the lead up), I rectified this for my second half by running 'long' runs at the whole half distance or more, 2 or 3 times in the build up. Given this, I was wondering what opinion would be to running one or more of the long runs at perhaps 24-25 miles or even full distance - i've never seen this recommended. Are we saying then, that to do 5 long runs of around 20 miles in the build up (which is the schedule of most) is adequate preparation to give us a good chance of making it round or is the 5 x 20 set to stop us overdoing it, possibly causing injury?
Your comments appreciated.
btw - AndyV i'll see you at the Reading half.
Cheers
Jon
Jon - what you're talking about is running a marathon as a training run, ie rocking up to a marathon race and going round it at training pace, not marathon pace. This idea and overdistance runs (26 miles+) would be better discussed on the (non Super Six) sub3 thread rather than on Andy's sub4 thread.
No disrepect intended but even on my schedule, the amount of long runs doesn't go over 100 miles in total.
AndyV - nice 10k in training there, good splits and if it was only at 70% effort that bodes well for sub 4 in April
Thanks for your comments MM.
I didn't really mention my point from the view of treating the marathon as a training run but was just thinking of the different techniques people might use to improve endurance over those last few miles, even if it was just from the psychology of having completing the distance before in one's head! Obviously people have done fine in the past with long run schedules upto 100 miles.... so i'll stick with professionals.
Anyhow as you say, i'll draw a line under this as we're here to keep in touch with Andy's activities and all the training habit's linked to his and the sub-4 schedule.
For experienced runners, I don't see a problem in very occasionally running a 20 miler plus (even 24) at a slow pace. whether they are on for a sub 3 or 4.
However, untl you have the mileage behind you, it isn't worth the risk and the potential negative effects that running for that time. It's probably only after you have most of the training behind you and can taper that running that long is really viable and of course you need to save your effort for the big day.
Occasionally people have tried too long a run in the build up, and firstly had a truly horrible experience which has affected the confidence, and taken far much out of the body in energy than given back in endurance.
Andy - very fast run - I know we are pre schedule and it's not indicative of what will happen next year but I think you are going to have to try and slow down slightly in your training runs. You are training your body to eventually run 26.2 miles at just inside 9 minute miles. So it's fine running 7 minute miles on your speedwork days but to do the volume of training you need for a marathon, you can probably only do it without getting injured by easing back the pace. Even 10 minute miles are ok for your long, slow runs!
I have averaged 2:45 for my last 5 Londons and wouldn't run as fast in training as you did today with a 7/10 effort!
Appreciate your comments Steve... good to get a second opinion that an occasional 'longer' run is not discouraged under the right circumstances.
AndyV: apologies for pinching your thread, hope you've escaped the outlaws!