Moraghan Training - Stevie G

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  • Good Work SW! Cracking splits too - Can't remember the world record holders splits, whether it s a slight positive split or not. Mine were 1.18 and 1.21 in Berlin. Seen quite a few with that slight positive split. Some of the top boys just have a jog round for 20 miles before racing the last bit.
  • JooliganJooligan ✭✭✭
    Pretty sure the ideal marathon pacing is a 60s positive split. Can't remember exactly where I read that but it was based on the fact that if you've raced to your optimum there will be an inevitable slowing in the latter stages. Obviously it's a fine balance & the penalty for overcooking it early far exceeds the minor gains to be made by adopting this strategy over the more cautious negative split option.
    Dress rehearsal for me today 8M w [email protected] Found it really hard to gauge MP properly due to the road I selected being considerably more undulating than I'd realised - never having run it before. MP section came out as 6:38/6:31 but there was a net downhill so Strava's GAP of 6:45/6:43 is a lot more realistic. HR was a few bpm higher than ideal so probably about right. Only thing I changed from a training run was the trainers - pretty confident that I know how I'll get on with my MIND vest as this'll be its 8th marathon! 
  • StevieWhStevieWh ✭✭✭
    Kipchoges world record is a 61.06/60.33 negative split. Paula Radcliffes record was a negative split as well so I'm happy to stick with that theory!

    Looking good for Brighton Jools, I hope you have abandoned the caffeine bullets for this marathon!
  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭
    Great race S. Very few manage to run negative splits going all out in a marathon. It's a rare feat. well done.

    Banking time is a physiological impossibility. Just an excuse for those who lack confidence in their own ability.

    Fat monitor scales. I have two sets. The old one's say 14% fat, the new one's 8%.  
  • Simon Coombes 2Simon Coombes 2 ✭✭✭
    edited April 11

    SW - Oh it wasn't advice or anything, just musing on what tends to happen split wise for the top runners. Would be good to see an average of the splits on say all sub 2.15 marathon runners and see what they come out at. Still think it's a slight positive split.

    Before anyone asks - no I haven't the time or inclination to do the study myself ;)

  • PeteMPeteM ✭✭✭
    Top 10 of the masses from last VLM would bear your view out Simon. Study took about 1 minute to compile ;)  

    111» Wallis, Daniel (GBR)Belgrave Harriers200718-39     01:09:13 02:19:40
    222» Gilbert, John (GBR)Kent AC143618-39                    01:07:38 02:20:19
    331» O'Hanlon, Gary (IRL)Serpentine RC131940-44         01:08:46 02:21:14
    443» Payne, Tony (GBR)Serpentine RC151418-39            01:09:15 02:21:53
    554» Bayton, Steven (GBR)Hallamshire Harrie181518-39 01:08:55 02:22:53
    665» Greenleaf, Andrew (GBR)Serpentine RC144118-39  01:10:14 02:23:19
    772» MOSCA, ALBERTO (ITA)Other5525940-44               01:12:04 02:24:09
    886» Westlake, James (GBR)Crawley AC146718-39          01:10:19 02:24:19
    997» Cox, Matthew (AUS)Belgrave Harriers164618-39     01:08:02 02:25:43
    10108» Totten, Eoghan Joseph (GBR)Oxford Universit46   01:09:33 02:26:32

  • ioweriower ✭✭✭
    Also, if you're in the sub 2:15 bracket then you're probably more often than not racing people around you as opposed to actually 'pacing' a run in a time trial fashion. Second half splits will inevitably include the mind games, surging etc towards the end to try and drop opponents
  • Agree Iower - Its actually a race right at the top end, where most other folk are just pacing it out per 5k or whatever.

    Very impressive PeteM. My plan worked :) Quite a few in the 4-6 minuite bracket there.

  • StevieWhStevieWh ✭✭✭
    Completely agree with Iower, although the only caveat to those results is the heat at London last year! 

    Looking forward to spectating VLM this year, will be a nice change being the other side of the barriers!
  • The BusThe Bus ✭✭✭
    So, if I've got this right, all of the top 10 in the masses atVLM lack confidence in their own ability then? No wonder they couldn't make the Elite start......
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭
    Yep bus.
    And every single one of my pbs was in my confidence lacking days 😏

    Cos obviously when you're lacking confidence you go out hard.
    Which must mean now, where i go off more gingery at times i am totally confident in my ability?

    Learn ting every day
  • Reg WandReg Wand ✭✭✭
    Last year was bloody hot so those figures will be skewed.
  • PeteMPeteM ✭✭✭
    Just looked at the same for 2017. All the top 10 of the masses had positive splits; average first half 2 mins quicker than 2nd. 
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭
    Beat me to it Pete, correct - exact same scenario on 2017, so not in the slightest skewed.
  • StevieWhStevieWh ✭✭✭
    My coach and I were discussing this yesterday. Our thoughts that a 1min negative or 1min positive split are about the perfect pacing strategy. Going off hard at the start is always going to result in a painful finish especially in the marathon!

    Physiologically you are burning through fuel early doors too fast then ideal and in a shorter race going into oxygen debt.

    That said if you are top 10 in the champs race at VLM it's not a time trial, so if the group goes faster then ideal you've got to go with it!

    Just my thoughts on it, not a dig at anyone!
  • Reg WandReg Wand ✭✭✭
    edited April 11
    Just a cursory glance at those splits tells me the average is a lot more than 2 minutes. CBA to work it out but I'd guess it's about 4-5 minutes. It's skewed, positive splits are even greater.
  • Reg WandReg Wand ✭✭✭
    Just saying, 2017 is a better year to support the hypothesis.
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    There's a level where a start is too fast for certain, and compromises the rest of the race - especially for longer races.

    For something like 5k, I've always found you need to get out hard, bank a little time, and that gives incentive to hold on.

    Last summer I did just that at Battersea Park 5k.

    A 3.15 first km, finishing around 3.23/4 average for 16.56

    Next time up, same conditions, I thought about attempting even pacing. I went through 1km in 3.24, which would have been almost dead on target.

    However, as I've always found in 5ks, I dropped off a bit, and ended up 17.14

    So I didn't try that again last summer. Podium 5k was an even sharper start, 3.12, but expected on a cycle track, in amongst outrageous quality.
    5 3/4 laps, and if It hadn't had the windy stretch even lap, I could have threatened that 16.56, instead coming 17.00, but again, I have to get out hard,


    Now, if the first km for me is coming out say 3.05-3.10, that would risk some sort of colossal blow out.
    I'd love to see that split for the time I did Dulwich in 2013, as I went out madly, and definitely had a real smash, before recovering for the pb of 16.53.
    Probably had more in me that day.


  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭
    No, I'm talking about the approach of banking time as a racing tactic.

    You're comparing it to something that happens in most races.

    Another 40/20 speed session today. Faster, further and with less effort than two days back. HR only just got to 160 bpm. Going so well I cut the session in half. 

    No need to wipe myself out. I already have the proof of progress.

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭

    Boiling up nicely for Staines then Ric?

    It feels like that time of the year, where months just whisk by. Before we know it it'll be summer, and then gone... so need to enjoy things!

    Need to pick something for a track burn tomorrow.

    Can either start the 5k plan in earnest, with the 8x600,2x400,2x200 one, or after a couple of long days driving, and with the big tempo banked on Tue, just go for something like the last 3 weeks - namely short reps and hard. 200s or 400s, and then get the 5k plan rocking in a week or 2.

    Anyone have a preference for me? :)

  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭
    edited April 12
    Yes SG, Staines. I almost forgot.

    Having to mix some work in and out of the training right now. I could ditch the work or just refuse to help out, but much as I'm interested in running/cycling, I'm not prepared to feed an aspect that could be seen as self indulgent. 

    Strange day yesterday. I went to a house and the lady introduced me to her next door neighbour.
     E gods! I recognise that face. "Weren't you a teacher"? Why yes, " Pinner Grammar"? She looked at me intently, Richard, Richard Francis!?  'Er, yes'. 

    And so, after more than forty years I had the chance to apologise for my part in our battles. Did I really give her a heel clicking Nazi salute with imitation Hitler tach?

    I thing I didn't do was mention her nick name was Bingo (due to resemblance to a cartoon character from Banana Splits)  :o
     
    Training then.

    I'd just do 5 x 600m where you're really hanging on for the final 100m. Long recovery of at least 4 minutes. Nothing else.

    That trains one energy system.

    However, I can see a way of doing the entire session though. It's at the same pace, same time of recovery.

    The longer reps are the tough tests. The shorter versions are a type of recovery in themselves inasmuch as you aren't sending yourself in as deep each go.

    That's what I'd do.

    If you go for the faster, faster, faster version. You'll be wrecking yourself. That's because you'll be overloading with extra speed when you are already tired.

    Save something. 
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭
    Was deep in sesh by that post Ric.
    I had to do a ticket drop off, so was up at 5.45am to do that, then decided just to do the lighter of the 200s.

    Bit windy, bit not quite up to speed, so when I started dipping to 35s, I sacked it off a bit early.
    Settling for 10x200, 1x33,8x34, and 3x35.

    I'd expect to hit 35s after a longer reps/tempo session, so 35s within a designated 200 sesh isn't ideal, so thought there's no point forcing a couple more out.
  • SW - Certainly its nuts going off hard in a marathon unless you are super fit, I think most people will just do that in a shorter race - I've only ever gone off really hard in anything over 10k to be honest. I was shit scared of the marathon - for me it's just working out a time for 5k and trying to stick to it..I think mine was 19.00 or something like that for 2.40 pace. Oh and the first vantage point for me will be opposite the Farriers arms on Lower Rd (8.6 miles I think)..good place before the madness of Surrey Quays. Come on down!!

    Track last night 5 x (600,400,300) off 2 mins. Found the 600's tough, as 1/3 was into the wind, but averaged 1.48's I think. the 400's around 67/68 and 48's for the 300's. I think!

    800m tomorrow in the SAL at Bromley..

  • DeanR7DeanR7 ✭✭✭
    simon - sub 2.05 @ SAL ?   im possibly coming down for london marathon watching.  will see if i can arrange a meet up.  as i owe you a beer....probably.

    i did a reduced, relaxed session last night as im full of takeaways and sugar at the moment.   6*1k  instead of the normal 3.05 target i was allowed to go at any pace i fancied.  so did a 5 at 3.18s and then on the last i chased the lead group and pulled alongside chatting away and did a 3.04.  So there is a bit of fitness in there somewhere but its being clogged up with pizza/chinese/curry/fish and chips/ben and jerrys/pies etc...  need to shift this weight and regain some motivation as its a bit "after the lords mayor parade" at the moment.  i think i just need a bad race on the roads or being embarrassed in training to make me get going again.




  • Dean - not surprised you are in a lull at the moment. Be good to see you if you can make it down - the spot I mentioned above is great, and only a 10min walk from Canada water tube.

    Unlikely to be sub 2.05 tomorrow, but hopefully not too far off, be ok with 2.07 I think.

  • Morning all! 

    Good luck anyone down this weekend at Brighton, been working flat out although yesterday was quieter than we wanted. 

    Great running at Manchester SW


    Ran the 5KM on Tuesday in 18.51, no warm up or anything just changed into some box fresh nikes and shorts, jogged 100m to the line - It's a starting point but I loved it!! 
    Pain is weakness leaving the body
  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭
    That's fantastic Scott. Maybe you don't really need to train much to go faster. Just lose a few of those Kg's.

    Right now for myself, I'd consider getting a sub 19 minute 5km an achievement. But mainly it's just being able to run at all, without pain. I'll take that regardless of speed.
  • JooliganJooligan ✭✭✭
    Decent result Scott. Guessing you were pretty when you took it a bit more seriously.
    I’m in Brighton for tomorrow’s marathon so cheers. #11122 in a MIND vest if anyone’s out on the course.
  • RicFRicF ✭✭✭
    edited April 13
    Jooligan said:
    Decent result Scott. Guessing you were pretty when you took it a bit more seriously.
    I’m in Brighton for tomorrow’s marathon so cheers. #11122 in a MIND vest if anyone’s out on the course.
    Ok, so Scott has put on a few pounds, but...come on.. :)

    15 miles in the book for me this morning. Same route as last Sunday. Average speed a few seconds per mile faster. Average HR 146 bpm. 
  • JooliganJooligan ✭✭✭
    edited April 13
    Seem to have lost “rapid” from my post Ric :D Sounds like a decent run & encouraging progress.
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