Moraghan Training - Stevie G

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  • Reg WandReg Wand ✭✭✭
    Cheers, yes Bus that's a PB by 51 seconds. Just need another 21 seconds to go for a so solid PB.

    Pete, I am sure PY will be happy enough with that 5k/10k/HM triumvirate.


  • PhilipMJonesPhilipMJones ✭✭✭
    PeteM said:
    However they announce and it ends up he gets nothing for his 34'2x as a v45 and has to take a pic of me instead for a time over 3 mins slower. Life's not fair sometimes ;)
    I never understand why there is always so much debate and confusion over prizes. The race organisers should sit down well before the race is run and agree and publish the rules for prize giving. A lot of it comes about when they try and juggle prizes to make it fair. 

    I think the best way to do so is to pretend that instead of having one race, you have multiple races and each runner can select what race they enter, so say there is an open race, a V40-49, V50-59 and V60+ for both sexes, so 8 races in total. For each of the races, the organisers publish the prize list, so let's say 1st to 3rd with £50, £30, £10 for the open race and £30, £15, £5 for the age groups. 

    A fast V40 could enter the V40 race or could take a risk in the open race. All that is known in advance and the numbers can be colour coded to reflect what race you are in so others can know who they are racing. If the fast V40 guy comes home first but has entered the V40 race he wins the V40 prize and the open race prize goes to the fastest finisher who has entered the open race.

    This has been happening forever for track and cross-country, I don't see why road races do not adopt the same.
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭
    So the winner of the race could not be the actual winner? Instead just getting a lesser vet prize?

    Utter madness 😄😄


  • PeteMPeteM ✭✭✭
    Can see where you are coming from Philip but too complicated for most and leads to the sort of anomaly SG mentions. I think it should be quite simple; you can only get one prize and you take the one with higher value if you qualify for more than one. You can still get oddities like the 2nd v60 being faster than the 1st v50 but you could even lose those of you allow v60's to take v50 prizes or v50's to take v40's. Probably fair enough to do that IMO. 
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭
    It'll always be a debate, but Pete's way has to be the way to go.

    But I suppose what should happen, is top 3 should be higher than the vets prizes to remove all doubt.
    For instance Staines 10k gave me lower prize for 3rd overall, then to Ric n Pete for Vet prizes.

    So if one of them had come 3rd overall, it would have been better for them to claim a Vet prize... which can't be right surely, as you'd want praise for the outright placing rather than a vet category?
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭
    On another note, how polished the Masters relay organisers are!

    Bearing in mind there's no chips, and it's a relay - surely THE hardest type of race to do results for, they got the results out by saturday night, and up on po10 by the sunday!

    Marlow 5 we're all still gently persuading, hassling and encouraging... with PO10 but they haven't quite got them up yet!

    Somehow my relay got me down to 1.9, but I dare say unless they for some reason deem the Marlow 5 course/conditions "average", I'm back to 2 :(
  • PeteMPeteM ✭✭✭
    SG; think we're nearly there between us on how prizes should work. My final tweak to your proposal would be top vet prize equal to 3rd place prize (still gets round your point of top 3 taking and wanting top 3 prizes, but acknowledges a bit better that you are actually winning a cat (albeit a vet one) as opposed to coming 3rd. 

    I have never understood why some Po10, like the Masters Relay, Ealing Mile and Staines 10k are up the same day and others take weeks. Is it just the race director not pressing a "send" button? Surely must be more to it than that?  What good reason is there for Marlow not being up yet and even more so why that Sandhurst xc took so many months (is it even up now?)
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭
    edited May 20
    Yep - that looks the best of all worlds Pete.

    Yes completely agree on the results. 
    The Masters is very polished - thinking about it, they had the results posted up not long on boards near the finish after the event! That's incredible for a non chip timed race!

    Marlow did similar, so with chips you'd think there should be no delay at all. They may well like to await any queries though, but surely they're aren't many?
    They did originally miss Jill out of the first draft of the results!! But major ones like that were quickly tidied up!

    I did note that one of Reading's guys at Marlow 5 was at the relays at Simon's club as first claim. I remember getting kicked out of results as I was 2nd claim once, and our chairman looked into it and found that you cannot count in a team as 2nd claim.... irrespective of whether the 1st claim team are in the event or not..
    That must be a lesser known rule, as most people presume it's just for closed events...like leagues where your 1st claim team compete.

    However, I doubt a lot of race organisers would realise, let alone stipulate it, and I got kicked out as one of my own team raised it! Weasel! :D


    I digress!
    Sandhurst was partially down to the fact most clubs don't realise that you have to take the provisional flag off the results, and THEN you have to let PO10 know. As they have so many 100s of results, they're not going to keep checking back in every week. And then add on the rep there slightly naughtily claiming they were still "looking into" queries.... which became less believable as 1) the months went by, and 2) the result had already been declared and the club final finishing positions confirmed!

    They tell me I'm unofficial middle man to pursue and get the results through to PO10 now...which makes sense as not many others seemed bothered, even people on the board :)
    But after so much hard work in getting the event on, it seems bonkers that they don't see it through with THE easiest final step!!
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭
    On another note, just updating my anorak race results spreadsheet, on my Mile tab, the Ealing numbers say it all!

    First 3 times there, 21-23 finishers
    Jan this year, 43.
    March this year 51

    May, 71!!

    They'll have to watch the numbers, as I'm not sure it has too much capacity to get bigger.


  • JooliganJooligan ✭✭✭
    Race director submits results to Po10/Run Britain as part of the licence. I know because I'm RD for our club 10K in July. I post results on FB/club website then within a couple of days I'll submit them to Run Britain provided there are no further queries.
    Age prizes in Gwent League XC go to highest placed person in each cagtegory but only one prize per person so if the 56yo winner has more points than the 45-54yo winner they take that prize so then 2nd 55+ wins that cat. Their age categories have been the same for men and women for 3 or 4 years now: V35+, V45+, V55+
  • Great 10k there Reg, bodes well for the future and great run Pete too - any vouchers or just a trophy?

    If I organised a race I would give max 2 prizes each - if you are a V40 and win the race, you deserve to win 1st place and the V40 prize too in my book. I don't actually think most runners would mind tbh. Any more than that it gets silly.

    So relays on Saturday. Felt ok in the warm up, nice chat with SG and set off in 3/4th place - the Leeds guy went off in front and I thought I would try and stick by him. Found out later he's a 2,30 marathoner, so if you can add a bit of speed, you'll run well here on this course. So it's along the downhill dog leg, then a long up and down and around to hit the big hill. By this time I have moved into the lead, which I hold until nearly the end.

    Feels good to leading around here, still feeling relatively ok after this bastard of a start with its 3 hills. So then I'm in the lead to the Jubillee stone, and down the long downhill to the pond, up a little rise and along to the bottom of the final hill. Been hearing steps behind me all the way round - and not being great up that final hill there's no surprise when the Leeds guy comes past me for the Leg1 'win'. Obviously he's got the 4% on, so I'm having that (only joking!) - although I'm in my Hyperspeed with Hoka insoles...which work ok actually!

    We come 7th in the end, unfortunately we dropped a bit, and Ben P (our Reading RR) could only make up 4 places, although he ran well. I did 16.47 and ended up with a medal for 3rd fastest V45 leg. A couple of folk I know did a few seconds quicker have both done aroun 16.00 for a 5k recently, so happy with the time.

    I'm also a 'Clown shoe virgin' no more - had a run round after in Ben  P's pair. They re a little weird, I'm feeling the support then the firmer plate below. Interesting.

    Will attempt to add a picture. Next stop the masters mile on Sunday

    Pic - Stu Doyle on far left, was in the XC team in Derry, the winner centre, Ben Reynolds on my right shoulder and Paul from AFD to his right.

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭
    It's up! Finally.
    And those few seconds of satisfaction do make you wonder about the ages of anticipation
    (i'm still talking about the results to po10...)

    16x200 at 1500 today then.
    34 should be the aim

    Track was fairly windy, but first half came out bang on, but by the second half the ones into the wind were definitely hard, but the other side of the track wasn't exactly still...

    Therefore, 9x34, 7x35 was about right today.
    Confident on a still day it'd have been most 34, so it's an improvement on things feeling a bit off.
    Especially as I went to sleep feeling a bit coldy.
  • PhilipMJonesPhilipMJones ✭✭✭
    PeteM said:
    SG; think we're nearly there between us on how prizes should work. My final tweak to your proposal would be top vet prize equal to 3rd place prize (still gets round your point of top 3 taking and wanting top 3 prizes, but acknowledges a bit better that you are actually winning a cat (albeit a vet one) as opposed to coming 3rd. 


    This all depends on your ruling for the number of prizes allowed per person and how age categories interact. 

    First, let's simplify the whole thing by ignoring sex.

    If you allow two prizes per person and ensure prizes stay within categories and assume different races for men and women then it is simple:
    • First three get 1st, 2nd and 3rd overall prizes.
    • First three in each category get 1st, 2nd and 3rd category prizes.
    That means that if you are the 3rd V40 you are guaranteed to get 3rd V40 prize. You could come behind any number of V50 runners.

    It gets more complex if you allow category swapping or limit the number of prizes. Say the first 4 home are all in the V50 category, then what prizes do they get? According to Pete's rules, 1st and 2nd get 1st and 2nd overall. 3rd and 4th have to fight between 3rd overall and first vet as they are equal, and then say the 5th home is V40, he cannot get the first V40 as it has gone. It all works if the prizes are ordered beforehand (it does not matter if the monetary value is the same, you just have to order them without an equality) and they are handed out so each runner gets the highest prize he has qualified for.
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭
    Stop complicating it with that big brain Phil :D
  • Simon Coombes 2Simon Coombes 2 ✭✭✭
    edited May 21

    But doesn't the max 2 prizes - as in 1. the whole race finish 2. your age category - just work out ok? In the above scenario, the 1st V40 guy home in 5th just gets the V40 prize.

    There can be other issues - I remember the Poole 10k about 10/15 years ago that was the SEAA champs 10k too. John Downes wasn't happy as his victorious London Irish team won a framed picture, whilst 2nd place BAC got a crate of Stella. 'very nice - but you can't drink a f*cking picture can ya?' were his actual words ;)

  • PeteMPeteM ✭✭✭
    edited May 21
    lol at the anecdote Simon and that was my sentiment too till recently; nowadays I like the trophy prizes as a few quid of running shop vouchers or bottles of wine etc. have no residual value. Just a trophy for Royal Berks but that will do (though Reg got two, see later for more on that ;) ). Well done on your relay result; that looks a brilliant run based on times of your peers and even our own SG; you must be very pleased with that.

    Back to the prizes debate; depends what you are trying to achieve I guess. For me, max 1 prize per runner seems a) fairest b) keeps more people happy and c) encourages good runners in as more chance of a prize.

    I also like the approach that if you finish in a better position in a younger age cat than the position you are in your own then you can have the prize for that younger cat. If you don't have that, someone who is a) younger and b) finished behind you can get a prize when you don't. In Philip's example I think it is right the v40 guy gets nothing as he wasn't first over 40 (even excluding the first 3 home), merely first 40-49. In that case I think the 2nd v50 is more deserving as he at least was the 1st v50 that didn't otherwise have a prize. That all works reasonably well if there is only 1 prize per age cat. Where it gets complicated is if there are multiple prizes per age cat, or multiple for v40 but not others (as at Reading on Sunday). Then, for example, the 2nd v50 could be ahead of all bar 1 v40, so do you move him up to get the 2nd v40 prize? I'd say yes but can see it is a bit confusing then. Basically there is no system that is undoubtedly fairest; most have merits and detractions, and I think Philip's first point that events should decide in advance and publish how the prizes will be allocated is the most important one.     
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭
    Yep - as per Pete, that's an animal time from Simon...

    If I could be sheepish enough to call myself "decent" at local level, then to be 8 years older, and taking 1.24 off me over a mere 3mins is a pretty tidy outing!
    As make no bones about it, 25secs a mile is a huge difference!
  • The BusThe Bus ✭✭✭
    Yep - one prize, whichever is of most value to whoever is higher up the finish list, but let the RO decide :smile:

    Good work in the relay Simon - nice photo too :smiley:

    Lovely day for a double today. Back is a wee bit sore today, but nothing like as bad as it has been, and feels more like the old issue than the new one! 

  • Cheers All - oh stop it, I won't be able to get my head through the door :) Yes, happy with the time, in the zone at the moment, you know when your quads feel strong and you generally feel nice and bouncy.

    Primmy Hill session yesterday - just the 8, not 10 - 70 secs of hell. Lovely weather though and a superb view as per normal. Trying to keep a few hill sessions through the summer.

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭
    It definitely doesn't hurt to see runners staying so keen and fast deep into their 40s, for those of us creeping towards the big 40!

    Although, obvs it depends on how fast you were or had the potential to be, to how fast you'll be :)

    Midweek 10 just done. 7.08.
    But it came out how it came out, as I allowed myself to ease in at 7.29,7.27,7.18 for the up first 3miles, then once warm and mostly flat or slightly down it settled 7 or under generally.

    It's funny how you set yourself mentally for a distance.

    10 never feels a cruise on a midweek morn, yet in both winters gone I did a number of 15s pre work. You certainly get used to it, and always think you "just" had enough energy for the number you needed to do!
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭
    As it's a quiet day on here, forgot to mention on my 10miler, midway through Burnham Beeches, literally just a straight way through rather than deep in, a massive white cow just wandered past.

    Seemed a massively bizarre place for one to be. But on the net it seems they do have a little grazing area, that this badboy had obviously wandered a mile off from!

    It explains the gates and grills on the floor!
  • Simon Coombes 2Simon Coombes 2 ✭✭✭
    edited May 22

    Ah Burnham Beeches. Loved that half I did in 'god knows when' (not on PO10)...nice day and a dip in the pool after! Then beer. top day..

    Might try and find out what year it was - Edit - no you can't they only do the winners.

    Oh and after 18 months, finally got new Adios. £89 with 10% off from Start Fitness, so not toooo bad I suppose. They'll do me for reps before after work and the odd 10 mile/half etc..

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭
    It sounds a great place for a half marathon, and I did it back in 2002 and 04 I believe. A mad burst of 7 in 3 years, and then only 20 in the next 14 years!

    Would most likely finish right up the field these days, but then you think, August, half marathon, even with tree cover it's asking for trouble.
    Even the 10k version doesn't really interest too much.

    Have obvs done the 5k summer series, and the 5k & 10k variants (offroad) put on by a rotary club.

    The 5k road race has a couple of very steep hills (by 5k standards), and even the offroad 5k I remember left me panting like a dog at 19mi pace!

    You definitely stick to what you know and like as you get more experienced!
  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭
    edited May 22

    Anyone local know much about Purple Patch?

    Maybe big boy @PhilipMJones ; (does the @ ever work, did we ever establish!?)

    I thought they were the Donalds, married couple behind them, but the names seems to be linked with "the race organisers" now, who do other stuff on top of Purple patch.

    Retirement/taken over job?

    I'm interested as half seem PO10 and half don't...hit and miss

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭
    edited May 22


    @PhilipMJones

    Ah that worked, so it must need a separate line..

  • Stevie  GStevie G ✭✭✭


    alright, 2mins later it's confirmed they left in 2017.

    Lesson learnt, should have held off ;)

  • The BusThe Bus ✭✭✭
    I've done a few PP races in the past SG. Always pretty well organised. Only exception to that was when I won the QM reservoir 10k series a few years back (for being amongst a handful of people who turned up to all three!) and they tried to give my massive trophy and box of gels prize to some young upstart, as they only had me down for the V40 prize! By the time it was sorted out, he'd had the adulation of the crowd and I was just some trouble maker hassling the organiser :smile: Don't know about the set up now though.....

    Almost ran out of time for a lunch run today, but eventually manged to squeeze in just under 5 between meetings at lunchtime by tempo-ing the middle 5k. Happy enough with 20:12 given it was warm, about half of it was on roughish towpath and I've not done much quality recently. Certainly a little retch at the end showed it was on the money effort wise anyway :smiley:
  • JooliganJooligan ✭✭✭
    Got abducted on my way in to the house this evening. Dragged out to do Mynydd Pen-y-Fal a 5M 1000' fell race up Sugar Loaf just as I'd sensibly decided to avoid it :D 
    Lovely evening for a hilly run. I tried reasonably hard but was over 2 minutes slower than I was in 2016 when the lead group all missed an important turn so we ran a bit further & a much steeper route. I was in 6th that time but fell back so much I lost motivation to hurt myself on the climb but hammered the descent.
    Tonight I knew my legs were shot from the w/e, yesterday's efforts & then today's 35M on the bike so took it steady to start but then ramped up what effort I could muster after about a K. Picked a couple off then held that position til the end. No idea where I came as results were recorded on a scrap of paper. No prize but I did beat the first V60 . . . just :D 
  • StevieWhStevieWh ✭✭✭

    Lots going on in here!

    SG/Simon - Enjoyed the relay reports and photos. I was really looking forward to turning out in the 6 stage in September but its the week before Berlin so I may have to wait for next years 12s. Congrats Simon for the prize!

    Reg - That's a top class 10k time, really impressive. Which half are you going to target for the sub 1.15?

    Pete - Likewise in the 10k

    Bus - Glad to see your back to it! Hows the back holding up?

    Jools - These fell races sound brutal! Hopefully you recover fairly quickly!

    Enjoyed the prize debate, I need to get a lot faster (or older) before I trouble any prize podiums! Legs have felt good since Saturdays parkrun. 8m tempo last night came out at 6.21 with the last few miles being the fastest. Starting to feel like my fitness is coming together now

  • Cheers SW - Why not do the 6 stage?  Its 8 days before the race, so enough recovery time and a great little run out. I did exactly the same when I ran my 2.39 at Berlin, gives your legs a little boost I think!

    Glad fitness getting there too. I'm a bit peeved as we are on the paths again today, schools have booked the track up..

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