The Middle Ground

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  • alehousealehouse ✭✭✭
    Yes, DT, I think most were a minute plus slower, so well done in the circumstances!
    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • mussesseinmussessein ✭✭✭
    I've found a weekly schedule that I'm now really happy with:

    Monday - rest/swim
    Tuesday - session AM, weights PM
    Wednesday - recovery
    Thursday - MLR
    Friday - rest/swim
    Saturday - long run
    Sunday - recovery + strength stuff

    Typically, now I've found something that I really like, I won't be able to stick to it for the next couple of weeks! 
  • alehousealehouse ✭✭✭
    As you all probably know Ron Hill passed away at the weekend, so my M76 friend and I donned Ronhill kit for our run this morning, and spent much of the 55 or so minutes reminiscing about him. 

    If you are looking for some inspiration and can spare 20 minutes (and fast forward the ads): 

    The Man Who Ran Every Day for 52 Years! | The Legend of Dr Ron Hill | Podium - YouTube

    Made in 2019, just after Ron's 81st birthday.
    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • Andrew_DAndrew_D ✭✭✭
    Well done on the race DT - sounds like horrendous conditions. 

    Muss - that looks like a nicely balanced weekly structure. Not too much running and some good cross training and S&C. Its the sort of schedule that I would like to get back to post injury.

    Alehouse - I read about Ron Hill's passing on the BBC website a couple of days ago and immediately thought that you'd said you knew him. Nice that you and your friend were able to spend a run sharing those memories.

    I've got my MRI on Thursday and then have a follow up physio appointment on Tuesday. I will get the CD of MRI images straight after the scan, so will drop these into the physio on Thursday/Friday for him to have a look at before my appointment. In the meantime, I'm basically resting apart from the odd S&C session and playing cricket.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Alehouse, yes, the difficulty of Thursday night is reflected in the runbritain difficulty rating so I feel satisfied with things.

    Sad news re Ron Hill, a huge running legend. I recall you saying you'd met him a few times, Alehouse?

    Looks reasonable, Muss. At times as you are mara training and if life gets in the way you'll need to prioritise running first. Miles count in marathons more than anything else.

    Andrew, fingers crossed the MRI spots something. I find it's better to find something, even if it is bad news, that not find something and be left in no mans land.

    Ticked over since the 10k and bouncing a bit between races with Sundays half. Annoyingly it looks set to be a 'glorious' day which isn't what I need, particularly with  a 11.30 start.

  • alehousealehouse ✭✭✭
    Glad that RunBritain scored it as a difficult outing, DT! And yes, knew Ron pretty well: there is a strong past members tradition at Manchester Uni so I first met him in around 1973 and had quite a lot to do with one another over the years. He invited me to join him at Heaton Park parkrun when he celebrated his 50th year of runeveryday. And funnily enough there was a clip on the BBC news of me running with him on that occasion! See photo below taken from the TV! He gave me the black t-shirt which says "Running every day since 1964" on the back, and worn with pride for my run yesterday. 

    Ron held the M40 marathon record for many years and he didn't think it would ever be broken, so when Steve Way broke the record at the Commonwealth Games in 2014 Ron phoned me to ask how to contact him, and subsequently Steve came up from Bournemouth to meet the great man. Again, see photo. Posted them in the wrong order and can't change them!

    And AD, what DT said about the physio!

    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • mussesseinmussessein ✭✭✭
    Alehouse - I enjoyed that film. Great photos too. Meeting people like that must leave quite an impression.

    AD - good luck with it all. How's the cricket?

    DT - yes, this week I won't get two swims in, for example, and I'll have to move things around to still get 5 runs in. But on an average week, I should be able to stick to that schedule - and the swims take even less out of me than a recovery run, so they are practically a rest day, certainly for the legs anyway.

    Hill reps today. 3km easy, then 6x90s hard uphill, then another 3km easy. On paper, it doesn't seem like very much hard running. In practice, it was a real leg and lung burner. I weirdly have to go up quite a steep hill to get to the best spot for hill reps - so all in all there was about 250m of climbing over 10km.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Good pics, Alehouse and fairplay to Steve Way for doing that.

    Muss, personally (unless you are training for a particularly specific hilly race) I've never overly seen the point of hill reps as a bespoke session over a flatter speed session, think I've done it 2-3 times and not in last 5 years. Though, sounds like a good session.

    I had a great session yesterday, just what I needed to restore confidence with a half on Sunday. 2m tempo at half effort (5.49 and 5.49), 3 mins easy jog then 5 x 1k off 90s easy jog (3.28, 3.31, 3.26, 3.31 and 3.27) giving me 6.25m in 38.06 and 6.06mm overall, so guess i'd have just crept under 38 at 10k.

    I've felt flat in sessions last few weeks and unable to unlock higher efforts but yesterday felt great. After that 10k last week at 5.58mm I felt battered but feel very little today so you can see the added effort the wind caused.

    On a plus, it looks pretty still sunday, on a negative with an 11.30 start, it could get warm if it's blue skies.

  • mussesseinmussessein ✭✭✭
    DT - great running, and exciting to have another race coming up. I guess you must have pulled up well from the 10k to fit two races and a session into the space of 10 days.

    Just out of interest, what's the rationale for these mixed effort kind of sessions, rather than having specific VO2 max or threshold sessions?

    I know what you mean about hills, I've done the odd freestyle effort, but never been drawn to doing a proper session till now. My main thought process was that as I've got some good ones close by, I may as well do something more with them than just shuffle up them. It was fun to do something more based on effort/feel than pace, and to not worry too much about getting feedback from the watch. It was also light enough that I could consider doing another easier session later in the week if I wanted. So I think it could be something to add into the rotation, but probably never one to be a main focus of the week.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    Well my initial answer to your question is that the benefit of bring coached is that the only things I need to know are;

    1. Do I trust that coach knows the answer to that question;
    2. Am I improving.

    For me the rest is academic after that. I've never been asked by Lewis to go and work my vo2 or at threshold. It's always 5k effort, 10k effort, half effort, mara effort. I think it's easier to get too fixated on vo2 ot threshold training. But, on any particular day your threshold will differ so asking someone to hit a fixed pace is almost a nonsense. Simple fact is, we know threshold is between half and 10k effort so if I'm working around those zones, somewhere I'll hit threshold.but there's plenty of science as to the benefits of working eitherside of that pace and also high end aerobic ie mara pace, not least because you can get a pretty high volume workout at a decent level of intensity without overly fatiguing. 

    Yes, see your point re hills, and fun and variation are also important as is convenience so it won't do you any harm for sure. 

    Easy 7m over lunch then a pretty decent smash in spin this evening. I know you have to ultimately run to get better at running but I really think that the benefits of really high intensity bike work a few times a week are understated. 
  • alehousealehouse ✭✭✭
    A very definite yes to hills from me: helps with building those glutes that we often mention.

    This week's marathon talk has an interview with Ron Hill from 2011. His part starts 38 minutes in for about an hour.

    https://marathontalk.com/shows/episode-583-celebrating-ron-hill/

    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • mussesseinmussessein ✭✭✭
    DT - that all makes a lot of sense.

    I've been watching some of Stephen Scullion's videos on youtube. He talks about biking as being "free fitness" because it fatigues you in an entirely different way from running, and also means your body doesn't have to absorb too much impact.

    I definitely am finding the swimming is free aerobic work - and in the process you're stretching lots of muscles and strengthening core. It's hard to go as hard as you would on the bike, though.

    Thanks for that, Alehouse, I'll have a look later.

    My 23 day run or swim streak will come to a close today as I've had to travel up to Yorkshire for work. I'm hoping to get a run in some beautiful scenery tomorrow though.




  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    Well all went to plan and beyond today. Thought I'd gone out too hard with a 5.55 first couple of miles but everytime I tried to pull back I kept going back to that pace so decided to keep going. 

    Fortunately found myself chasing down 4th place from about 7m so was engaged in a race when the going got tough  at 10m. Couldn't quite catch him and he pulled away in last k. 

    I came in 5th in 78.18 on my watch for 5.54mm pace and only mile 13 (6.00) wasn't sun 6 pace. The last k (all markers were in k) went on and on. I went through 20k about 15m over distance on my watch and knew if that stayed around there sub 78 was on. I then ended up running 13.26m. There was a lot of moaning by folk post race about it. 

    I ran unofficial pbs at 5k (18.13) 5m (29.30), 10k (sub 37) and 10m (low 59s) during the race. 

    No official results up yet but I usually gain a couple seconds on them. Hoping to have grabbed first v40. I knew the 4th place guy and the winner were seniors. 



    I have a £70 bottle of champers a friend bought  couple of months back as I helped them out with a load off free legal advice. I said I'll open it when I post a sub 80 half.....
  • alehousealehouse ✭✭✭
    Great work, DT! Was wondering how you got on! Obviously the weather was a positive! Enjoy the champers! 
    Which race was it...and what next? 
    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • alehousealehouse ✭✭✭
    Just found the result, DT. A fair way to travel? And well done on the age group win!
    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    Alehouse, phew, was getting edgy as to why the chip results weren't up. 78.16 officially then and first v40 so good outcome. It was about 1.45 to get there and 2 hours home but an 11.30 start made it possible. 

    Weather, there was breeze that on one exposed part of course when straight into was mildly irritating but nothing major. Sun came out at about 9m and was very quickly energy zapping buy thankfully my work was done by then and it did make for a tough last 2m but shouldn't that be the case in a half?

    As for what's next, we are travelling to the lakes in the morning for a 4 night half term break so today was the natural conclusion of a mini cycle. I have a just under10m leg of the cotswold hilly 100 next Sunday. Its a club event and very much a c race. My leg was won in 63 mins in 2019 so even with some hills and a reduced effort id expect to be in mix. 

    After that I'm going for a decent training block for some 7 weeks before Bedford Autodrome 20m race which I plan to run like sub 2.50 mara. Though I doubt in the interim, assuming parkrun restarts, that I can hold off the desire to go for a sub 18 blast. 
  • mussesseinmussessein ✭✭✭
    DT - congrats. Great result and time! That's a big chunk off your December race.

    What was the race like behind you? A solo last mile or so sounds tough, especially after a tough battle before hand.
  • alehousealehouse ✭✭✭

    May's figures: 31 days run, just over 129 km, so around 80 miles. Gradually getting back to it I guess, with a sight cut back before and after jab 2. Want to get back to the 200 k a month region, although I know I need to build to this sensibly.
    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    Muss, thanks, that's over 5 mins off in my last three half's now. 

    I think there was a guy I passed at about 11k who I'd chased down who came in a minute after me. There was no real competition behind and frankly I wasn't too worried about that. I was balancing chasing down 4th place whilst also making sure I did nothing silly to cock up a bug pb. 

    188m for May. Probably build that to just over 200 in June.  

    That's good progress, Alehouse from where you you've been recently and issues faced  
  • Andrew_DAndrew_D ✭✭✭
    Hi all - hope you've all had a good long weekend?

    DT - great stuff! You're really in fine form at the moment!

    Alehouse - glad to see you've been able to build through a steady month in May. Hope the second jab hasn't made you feel as bad as the first!

    Muss - good training from you too. Enjoy the Yorkshire running in the sunshine!

    As for me, I had my scan last Thursday and have dropped the CD of images into the physio at the end of the week. I have an appointment at 2pm today, so hopefully will get some answers (with the official report from the clinic who carried out the scan also due today or tomorrow). 

    So I've done no further running recently (only 4 miles in the whole of May!), but have played cricket the last two weeks without much of a negative reaction. In fact, typically, ever since I booked the scan immediately after my last physio session the knee has felt considerably better. I am going to wait for the official advice after reviewing the scan before I begin running again though.
  • mussesseinmussessein ✭✭✭
    Good news Alehouse. You've done the hard part now - getting from 0-129 is much harder than building up further now you've got momentum.

    233km for me last month. Felt a couple of niggles creeping in last week - something in the arch in my right foot and very tender on my left leg around the VMO/groin area. With a lot of self massage in both areas, it seemed to clear up and I felt great after my MLR on Sunday. Just to be safe, I'll take a bit of a cut back this week 
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    Andrew, what was the outcome with physio? 

    Muss, decent total. Training for a mara yo a large extent you really need to tune into your body and know what is a niggle that's going nowhere and whats a warning sign that needs to be taken seriously. 

    Lovely day today in the lakes, blue skies all round and lots of walking. 
  • Andrew_DAndrew_D ✭✭✭
    Hi DT - I guess the physio went well. At least in the sense that he didn't pick up any major issues to the bones, ligaments, tendons etc on the MRI. He did note areas of inflammation behind the kneecap, in the patella tendon and at the point where it joins the tibia, which was what he expected. He was also encouraged that in the past two weeks it has been feeling much better.

    So I suppose that is encouraging, although his advice was still to avoid running for another few weeks to let it settle down even more, and even then to be cautious.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Hope everyone is well?

    Andrew, it's a catch 22 to some extent. As I said previously finding something very specific on an MRI is great in that you have an answer, but bad because there's a problem but at least you get to the thrust of the issue. Hopefully things will keep improving.

    I managed runs on Wednesday and Thursday in the lakes on a 6m loop I found, with Thursdays being run at a decent tempo effort. Got back Friday evening then did a 5m run Saturday.

    Yesterday was the cotswold hilly 100. Its organised by Stratford AC and is 10 legs of about 10m each but all but leg 1 are horribly hilly, and leg 1's lack of hills is offset by a 7am start (unless you like that time of day!). I was on leg 9 of our men's team (we also had a mixed team). My leg was 9.75m and I felt I could go sub 60. With a 3.50pm Start though it was warm and sunny and the first half is tough with much of the climbing of the leg in first 4m then mile 5 is about 400ft of downhill so almost too aggressively downhill to be useful. 

    Due to the nature of the event this was a complete solitary TT and with the team not in top 3 and no specific personal pb such as a 10m to chase I found it hard to suffer second half. 

    I think I got my pacing wrong and by mile 3 I was blowing and drenched in sweat. I possibly detrimentally affected the last few miles which were gently downhill. Miles were 6.00, 6.12, 7.14, 6.40, 5.26, 6.06, 5.58, 6.15, 6.12 and 6.17, coming in at 60.43 for 6.13mm. 

    I think I was our clubs 2nd fastest on day with our fastest being the flattish leg 1 and I was 2nd or 3rd on my leg looking on strava. Disappointed to not be sub 60, but coming off last weeks half then a holiday and on a warmish, sunny day, I'll take it. 

    That's 3 races in succession so time now to pull that back and get a good block of training in now before my improbable lanzarote holiday end of July.   Next up is a 20m race on Bedford Autodrome, though I may well sneak a parkrun between now and then if they get going.

  • mussesseinmussessein ✭✭✭
    Andrew - I suppose that's good news. Keep on going with the S&C - strong calves, feet, and especially glutes should help protect your knees. 

    DT - well done on the race. I can imagine it would be tough to unlock that top level of effort in the circumstances. 

    Lots of travelling this week for work. After Yorkshire, on to Somerset and then Gloucestershire (where I did a 7km run with a silly 250m of climbing and probably the same amount of downhill). Lots of good routes all in all, with Somerset being my favourite of those places to run.

    46km for a bit of a cutback last week. 
  • mussesseinmussessein ✭✭✭
    Kicked off this week with a pyramid job. 1-2-3-4-3-2-1 mins, 90s after the 4 min, 60s for the others. Those rests started as jogs, but ended up as walk/shuffles as the session progressed.

    I overcooked rep 2 due to a frantic buzzing sound following me around. It just wouldn't go away, despite me flailing (and getting some very strange looks in the process), so I had to pause after the rep to try to bat it away. It turned out that a wasp had got stuck in my hair (a drawback of having curls!), and once it had got free, it started going for my ankle. I ended up with 3 stings on my scalp, and 2 around my Achilles. Luckily it didn't start hurting till after I finished the session. 

    Anyway, apart from rep 2, which was too quick, I was very happy with the pacing for this one, especially as it was a hot one. It was definitely hands to knees on the way back down the pyramid, though.

    First jab booked for Saturday afternoon.
  • Andrew_DAndrew_D ✭✭✭
    Sounds painful Muss! No wonder that rep came out quicker!

    Yes, you are both right that I am glad that it didn't show up anything major, but it is frustrating to have to continue to rest. I did manage a 10 over spell on Saturday at cricket in the heat without any noticeable impact on the knee though. My aerobic fitness is definitely suffering now after so many weeks of not running, and so many months of hardly running before that.
  • alehousealehouse ✭✭✭
    Managing 10 overs sounds good, AD! If you can manage 60 short sprints with walk recoveries I think that you may be ready for some running! I would start with run/walk, eg 2 minutes on, 1 minute off, and just do 5 or 6, keeping the running easy. See if any reaction, particularly the next day. And keep up the S&C. I seem to be forgetting to do the latter. 

    Cringed at the wasp story, Muss!

    Your relay result shows that you are in good shape, DT

    Not a lot to report here. All a bit of a struggle but did manage a very slow hour's run with my M76 neighbour on Monday. The last three weeks have hovered round 30 km, which isn't really enough but I will take it for now!
    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Thanks, Alehouse, it certainly is weird after many years of being solid enough, to find myself one of the 'big guns' at our club. I was cross examined Sunday after the event by various club members who I am connected on strava with but never see as I do my own training, as to what I've changed etc.

    Some decent cricket weather this weekend, Andrew, less so for running.

    Crikey, that sounds like a nightmare, Muss and hugely unlucky!

    I've ticked over this week with mainly just miles and one semi session. I am off out lunchtime for a 14m run as I am out from 1pm tomorrow for the footy and sunday looks much too hot to try and   run long and have a hangover.

  • mussesseinmussessein ✭✭✭
    14km MLR on Thursday, 22km yesterday and my first jab yesterday, followed by 7.5km very nice and easy this morning. That takes me up to a frustrating 59.9km for the week, but obviously an extra 100m is neither here nor there in terms of the training effect.

    I think I've got away without any real side effects from the vaccine, although I did feel very sluggish first thing this morning - but who knows how much of that is just standard post long run fatigue. 

    The heat hasn't seemed to effect me as much as I feared it might - HR hasn't been much higher on my runs, and my long run yesterday was very enjoyable despite being quite sticky and needing a pitstop for water.

    A bit of a step up next week - I'm aiming for 24km/16km for LSR/MLR.
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