The Middle Ground

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  • Kaysdee - you ought to see what BR wears to run - fleece hat, gloves, long trousers and jacket and I'm not talking about winter this is in spring!  He wore gloves on Sunday for out long runimage  I've only just gone into short in the last few weeks, but my excuse is I'm not used to the northern summer, which I might add is still a bit cool for summer in my eyes.  However, it was very hot yesterday, yay felt like I was back on the coast in summer! 

    Anyhow, running was tough in the humidity yesterday.  My speed session felt harder than previous weeks.  The few days of lurgy might also have had something to do with it too.  Still it's beautiful at the moment and great to see daylight lasting until bed time!

  • I suppose I'm used to the weather usually being pants on the North East coast. It makes me melt just thinking about wearing all that image.

    Very poorly little boy during the night last night so he'll be staying home today. Eldest has a grotty nose too. What's the chances I now wake up on Sunday with a raging cold!

  • kaysdee, the humid race that we didnt perform was the clive cookson, i did 35.28 last year and wanted to improve but alas i think my body doesnt like humid conditions, i was in bits after tynedale last year too because of the heat, my 5th mile on wednesday, 6.29 was slower by a country mile than any of my GNR half marathon splits
  • I'm a mild asthma sufferer so humidity really does cause a drop off in pace.  The feeling of being deprived oxygen makes the legs ache and feel heavy, the lungs struggle and sometimes a dizzy feeling.

    I think I've read it takes 7-10 days of heat acclimation to cope with humid conditions (we don't normally get that many consecutive hot/humid days in this country) but I'm not sure acclimation would do anything for someone with asthma, would it?

  • Curly45Curly45 ✭✭✭

    I dropped out half way through my tempo last night as the pace was taking a nosedive image...needless to say I was beetroot on stopping and my legs wouldnt play ball anymore so did the rest of the session at 11 mins/mile image

    Hope you dont get a cold Kaysdee!!!

    Hilly - I want cool - its 25 degrees here!!! Its too hot - its like a tropical rainforest on the tube image

  • The worst day I can remember recently on the humidity front was the day of the July Spencer Arms last year.

    It felt like blood had turned to treacle and was such hard work - on a tough, hilly course like the Spencer Arms you really notice how the oxygen movement is badly affected.

    On the plus side, I like to think that you get more bang for your buck when training in these conditions - a bit like altitude training in mid Yorkshire! image

  • Hilly, I have exercise induced asthma and it is quite bad right now. My only breathing symptom is in lack of volume (feels like I can only take about a 1/4 of a breath in) and I've never been able to acclimatise to it, but this in turn has a devastating effect on the legs. Ironically, it is supposed to be easier in the heat and worse in the cool, but I find the opposite.

    20 degrees in Newcastle, but humidity 80+ %. I can only see up to 6.00am on the site I use for weather, but Edinburgh is already showing 16 degrees at that time on Sun image. I'm torn between taking it even easier than I was going to, but the flipside is I'll be out for longer, which also can't be good. I think it was 22 miles before I really suffered with last year's heat so I'm inclined to try to just get it over with.

    Sawney, yeah I was going to do it on Wed as an easy run (for club points) but glad I didn't. Tynedale was a killer. I couldn't even eat the pie afterwards, I felt so image. Cake would have been better image.

    Curly, I hate the tube! You're off to Belgium tomorrow? Have fun.

    PRF, humid and hilly? My worst nightmare. You are right about hard training in the heat though. As much as I hate it, I do love it in the autumn when the temps plummet and you feel like you're flying! 

    Apologies for the appalling grammar in the last sentence of my last post.

  • I'm currently living in Fife, about an hour from Edinburgh. Just been out and it's 22 degrees C image
  • Curly45Curly45 ✭✭✭

    Duck thats positively Carribean for you lot isnt it?? image

    Sorry your post got lost a bit yesterday - can you explain some more about the significance of cardiac drift to me please? (never trained by HR so its a whole unknown world to me)

  • Mr VMr V ✭✭✭
    Sawney – I did the Clive Cookson as well and struggled badly. I’ve just checked out the official results and you can see how much slower the times are than for last year. I think there were a lot of people who found it really hard going.
  • Curly45 wrote (see)

    Duck thats positively Carribean for you lot isnt it?? image

    Sorry your post got lost a bit yesterday - can you explain some more about the significance of cardiac drift to me please? (never trained by HR so its a whole unknown world to me)

    Tropicalimage

    Essentially, when you sweat in hot weather, your blood volume dereases, so your heart has to pump faster (higher bpm) to get the same amount of oxygen-rich blood around your system.

  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭

    It's certainly hot out there ... just back from a 5.6 mile run and I'm bakedimage.

    I've been doing some tests ... I'm a scientist and I can't help getting carried away with the geeky side of training ... even though I know bugger all. image

    A couple of pages back I posted the data from 2 runs, one on 21st April and the second 4 weeks later on 19th May. Both were the same 5.55 miles with a middle 4.2 miles consisting of 4 laps of a local park. On the latter run, I tried to maintain the same pace as the former and was delighted to see a big improvement in the average heart rate. I did a short/easy run yesterday and then repeated the same 5.55 mile run today, only this time I tried to maintain the same heart rate as the first run (rather than the pace) so I could record the pace improvement. Here are the data for the middle 4.2 miles:

    21st April: 7:49 min/mile, 145 bpm (75% wHR or 81% maxHR)

    19th May: 7:55 min/mile, 136 bpm (68% wHR or 76% maxHR)

    21st May: 7:22 min/mile,  144 bpm (75% wHR or 81% maxHR)

    So, almost a 30s per mile improvement in a month ... very happy with that. image

    I have my first marathon in 10days ... I had targetted a sub-3:30, aiming at something like 7:55 m/m as this would be at a sensible 75% wHR (80% maxHR). It now looks like I should be able to maintain a lower HR at that pace which should mean I have a better chance of avoiding melt-down at 22 miles ... I'm not confident enought o risk increasing the pace, despite the data.

  • Dan, you're progressing so fast... I've improved by about 15 sec/mile in twice the time image
  • Curly45Curly45 ✭✭✭

    Wow Dan that is some improvement!!! Especially considering the weather image I think its wise in your first marathon (or maybe even the first 5 image) to take things more slowly than you can think you can manage - partly because its better to get to the end and think you can do better, thank hit the wall and suffer a massive loss of time!

    Thanks Duck - thats what I thought...so can you explain why the decrease on your graph as well (or did you slow pace there)?

  • Curly45Curly45 ✭✭✭
    The Duckinator wrote (see)
    Dan, you're progressing so fast... I've improved by about 15 sec/mile in twice the time image

    I wouldnt worry about that - you'll probably get a massive leap forward when you hit your speedwork period image

  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭
    The Duckinator wrote (see)
    Dan, you're progressing so fast... I've improved by about 15 sec/mile in twice the time image
    This is 5-6 months after starting Duck ... be patient. image
  • Nice stats, Dr Dan!
  • Very impressive!
  • Curly45Curly45 ✭✭✭

    Okay so I have a question which I've been mulling over...its a bit 'girly' so the guys may want to look away now! image

    I've come off the depo injection recently partly because of the possible side effect of loss of bone density and partly for other non running reasons, during the time I was on it (12 months or so) I didnt have any periods (hence the worry about amenorrhea).

    Now however, I've got the opposite problem in that I've been bleeding (normal amounts for me) for over a week now - this bleeding is normal apparently (redjusting cycles I believe), but I'm wondering if I should be upping my iron intake? My question is can you become anemic from longer but not heavy periods??

    (I have also been craving meat and eating more meat than usual which is kind of made me wonder about iron thing)

  • Dr.Dan wrote (see)
    The Duckinator wrote (see)
    Dan, you're progressing so fast... I've improved by about 15 sec/mile in twice the time image
    This is 5-6 months after starting Duck ... be patient. image
    Ah right, carry on.image
  • Yes, you can. When I wasn't a runner and in between kids I used to have a longer cycle length (35 days or so), but same number of bleeding days. Since my last child, I am now on a perfect 28 day cycle (how annoying), yet can have some form of blood loss for 7 - 10 days (not all heavy).

    When I saw the doc last week and explained the just not feeling myself thing and asked him to check for anaemia, rather than him suggesting it, he agreed mainly on the basis of the cycles.

    I would advise to go and get a blood test and ask them to check both hb and specifically ferritin. I should get my results next week. Although you could start supplements now with no harm if you aren't anaemic and they do take a while to kick in, I'd wait until you have blood taken so you can get a true base reading. Also explain you are a long distance runner as that is a risk factor in itself.

    If your surgery is as useless as mine, I'd book both a doctor and a nurse appointment so you can get it sorted in one go rather than seeing your GP, then having to wait another week to get blood taken in another appointment image

  • Curly45Curly45 ✭✭✭

    Ah interesting thanks Kaysdee!

    I'm not expecting it to be a long term problem because it should adjust back, but if it doesnt stop by Monday then I have to pop in to docs anyway because its over 10 days, so I can ask them to do full bloods then anyway - think they have to take the bloods at the hospital round here (thats what they've done before) image

  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭
    The Duckinator wrote (see)
    Dr.Dan wrote (see)
    The Duckinator wrote (see)
    Dan, you're progressing so fast... I've improved by about 15 sec/mile in twice the time image
    This is 5-6 months after starting Duck ... be patient. image
    Ah right, carry on.image

    Yep, hang in there Duck. Here's a potted history from my experience....

    Started running after 23 year "rest" in June 2008. Managed a 47:54 10K PB in Nov 2008 and 23:16 5K PB in Jan 09 (6 weeks of ITBS in the middle).

    Feb 2009 - Started HRM training. Pace at 70% wHR was 10:15 min/mile!

    April 2009 - Pace at 70% wHR was 9:15 min/mile (44:36 10K PB, 21:42 5K PB)

    [... then followed a sporadic year with no where near enough mileage ... bad knees!]

    Jan 2010 - restarted HRM training , increased mileage with no knee issues (thanks to VFFs and better form).

    March 2010 - Pace at 70% wHR was 8:15 min /mile (managed 42:34 10K PB, 21:01 5K PB while in the middle of marathon training).

    May 2010 Pace at 70% wHR  is now approx 7:45 min/mile ...  marathon on 31st May and (minor) heart operation on June 7th ... then once I'm recovered I'll start doing some quality work to try to get closer to sub 20 5K and then sub 40 10K.

  • I'm only 8 weeks into base, out of 11. Patience is key, I know. I'm planning 4 months at the end of the year, so should see more improvements over christmas.

    How is the heart now Dan? I saw your HR trace on Fetchimage looked pretty serious.

  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭
    The Duckinator wrote (see)
    How is the heart now Dan? I saw your HR trace on Fetchimage looked pretty serious.


    Not had any issues this year ... just the odd "spike" but nothing sustained. However I think that's because I've been base training and not doing long sustained efforts over 90% max HR. I had major episodes on about 4 races on the trot in 2009! It's just a "short circuit" in the hearts electrics ... not dangerous but damned inconvenient if you're a runner ... my heart is structurally is sound etc. So with luck the docs will find the bad pathway on 7th June and zap a small bit of my heart tissue to ablate it. It involves shoving various electrodes into my heart cavity via a vein in my groin.image  ... That's the bit that I'll have to recover from before i can run! imageimage

    Still, it takes the edge off worrying about the marathon. image

  • RatzerRatzer ✭✭✭
    Dammit, Dr. Dan, I had to shut my legs and pretty much everything else reading that one! image
  • Mr VMr V ✭✭✭
    Funny old thing running isn't it? After my poor performance on wednesday night for a race I had targetted and properly tapered for I thought I would do the 5K Parkrun this morning just to get it out of my system. Despite it being roasting hot and my legs feeling tired as anything I got a pretty big PB and ran 18.53. I'm really delighted but can't work out why I was so much faster today than on Wednesday!
  • Great stuff Mr Viperimage
  • RatzerRatzer ✭✭✭

    Great stuff, Mr V.

    I'd say because you trained for Wednesday you are presently at a peak of fitness, which racing on Wednesday may actually have improved.  Add to that the fact that you just said "to hell with it all" and probably put even less pressure on yourself because of the heat and tired legs, expecting little, you relaxed and it all came together!

    Now I've gotta try that sometime soon! image

  • Well done, Mr V. Some of my best races have been "after thoughts".

    Scorching hot in Edinburgh. Going to be fun tomorrow. Spare a thought while I run the marathon and wish some rain on me would you. image

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