The Middle Ground

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  • Curly45Curly45 ✭✭✭
    Zion wrote (see)
    Hilly sorry to hear that. Tricky business getting to the starting of a marathon 100 percent. Thought I'd done so well as I didn't miss a days training! Unfortnately this is the only one I would be able to do over the next couple of months so will have to have a real think about what to do. Have thought of just plodding round it  for the experience if I don't feel too bad but don't know if this would do more harm than good. I have entered Mablethorpe in October but was really looking forward to this one. Did you decide against doing another?

    I agree with this completely - its what seems to seperate the really good from the best...sometimes its bad luck, sometimes its training problems and sometimes its lack of robustness, but its so hard to give up on something that you've trained for for such a long time. I do hope you are well enough to run it - but if not try to think of it as training in prep for October rather than anything wasted.

  • Curly45 you've hit the nail on the head - so hard to give up on something you've trained for for such a long time - this is what I'm really struggling with at the momentimage The sensible bit  knows it's all good training in the bank but I wanted something to show for it!! Running is an interesting journey for sureimage
  • Another fan of hills here. I kind of have to be, living in Leeds! I think you can get all sorts of various training benefits from them. One of my most challenging workouts is 6-8 miles tempo effort over a hilly route (Kenyan hills?), I am very tired the next day after this one. I also have a route which is undulating all the way round but becomes hilly in the last 4/5 miles - I use this quite often for a long run - kind of mental and physical practice for the final stages of a marathon.

    Because most of my routes are bumpy I take less notice of pace and more on effort with the occasional visit to the track to see where I am at in real pace terms.

    Have to say though, when I am knackered I really hate hills image

  • I need to do hills - though being in Fife I have none image

    I was considering doing some form hills drills during my next base period (winter, probably). I would agree that they're great for strengthening. 

  • Curly45Curly45 ✭✭✭

    Sue - you must have done Leeds parkrun at some point then - small hill, big effort on the 3rd lap image

    I think we're doing Hull this Saturday...should be interesting, relatively flat I think.

    I need to go to the track later but have a serious case of the CBAs right now...might go this evening instead  image

  • Curly45Curly45 ✭✭✭
    Duck - I live in central London - I have zero hills! I think my usual run has about 30ft of elevation change image
  • Do you ever run in Hyde Park? I was on a weekend break with my OH there a few weeks ago and I got up specifically early so I could run through Hyde Park (we stayed by Victoria Bus Station). It was 6.30am and amazingly tranquil.
  • Curly - no I haven't done the Leeds parkrun, it's the other side of Leeds to me, plus Saturdays are really busy for me with various kids clubs etc so I schedule my day off then to allow some family time.
  • RatzerRatzer ✭✭✭

    Curly, can you make it up to Primrose Hill, or take a tube to the Heath?  Hampstead has some lovely hilly bits.  Which area are you based in?

    Any of the Northern Line tube stations in the central area have some pretty challenging stairs!  image

  • Curly45Curly45 ✭✭✭

    Duck - thats where the parkrun is image

    Sue thats a shame - its a great family event that one - its pretty busy now (even I lap people!)...Bradford was fun but as alluded to by BR earlier in his race report is very hilly and worth about a minute on other courses! 

    Interesting Leeds (and Greenwich which is all on grass) is my pb course - I seem to do well on hills depsite the lack of regular hill training - I suspect its because I lack aerobic capicity for all out effort on the flat, but my legs are very strong so I always catch people on the hills (both up and downhill).

    Which leads (Leeds image) me to another interesting point - my lungs always run out before my legs, for PRF its the other way around (he seemingly has huge lungs)...what about the rest of you?

  • Curly45Curly45 ✭✭✭
    Ratzer wrote (see)

    Curly, can you make it up to Primrose Hill, or take a tube to the Heath?  Hampstead has some lovely hilly bits.  Which area are you based in?

    Any of the Northern Line tube stations in the central area have some pretty challenging stairs!  image

    I can get the bus to Hampstead (end to end!) but I hate getting it back all sweaty and I get cold...I'm in Pimlico so pancake flat! 

    Not stairs!!!  *runs away screaming*

    As said I do get weekends in Leeds so I do get some hill running in but not as much as I would like image

  • I was in London the morning of the Hyde Park 10k. Despite the fact I'd had no sleep, little food and drink (after taking the megabus down) I was sorely tempted to run it.
  • Curly45Curly45 ✭✭✭

    Oh sorry  I meant Leeds Hyde Park! image

    I run in London's Hyde Park (or at least I used to) but its full of 'poser runners' and it pees me off (sorry to anyone else who runs there)...they insist on storming up behind me, overtaking (puffing like mad) and then dying a painful death about 100m ahead. There's also loads of those women with their bouncy ponytails who look like they've never stepped off a treadmill before (wearing £100s of kit too)...

    Give me sensible Battersea any day image  (plus I get to laugh at the BMF nutters!)

  • PhilPubPhilPub ✭✭✭

    Teehee!  Saucer of milk for Curly.   image

    Ratzer wrote (see)
    Although, trying to stick a set HR on a hilly course causes the reverse, with easy restful uphills and mad downhills.

    Yeah, if I'm training for a hilly event (which I am, Midsummer Munro half marathon, mid June - 3,000ft of ascent) I'll swap things around a bit so that I'm effectively doing something like a HMP/MP effort continuous run.  HR is always going to drop off a bit downhill (unless you're a complete kamikaze, which I'm not) but it's a good exercise to try and keep HR steady between the flat and the ups, and also to keep pushing on when going over the top of the hill.

    While I'm still testing the knee I'm reluctant to push the pace at all going down hill but I will start doing more 'Kenyan hill' type sessions when I feel more confident and I'm peaking again.

  • How much ascent? image Jesus.

    Then again, the Mt Blanc Marathon doesn't look any better http://www.montblancmarathon.net/index.php?rub=&langue=an

  • Zion wrote (see)
    Hilly sorry to hear that. Tricky business getting to the starting of a marathon 100 percent. Thought I'd done so well as I didn't miss a days training! Unfortnately this is the only one I would be able to do over the next couple of months so will have to have a real think about what to do. Have thought of just plodding round it  for the experience if I don't feel too bad but don't know if this would do more harm than good. I have entered Mablethorpe in October but was really looking forward to this one. Did you decide against doing another?


    I hope you manage to get the symptoms under control then!  I'm not planning another one this year, although I do get pangs to do so!  I've decided to work on short distance speed and do London next year.

    Hills are the bane of my life living in Holmfirth, especially when tired.  Just about every route is hilly, I even live half way up one.  We drive over to Barnsley just to get to run some flat routes!  Although I have to say that I've noticed that in races I really handle hills well.  I used to think I was slow on hills, but I'm not really, although I'm pretty good at handling downs too especially off road.

  • RatzerRatzer ✭✭✭
    Curly45 wrote (see)
    ...they insist on storming up behind me, overtaking (puffing like mad) and then dying a painful death about 100m ahead.

    Sorry about that.

    It's just natural when I see a bouncy ponytail in front of me!

  • RatzerRatzer ✭✭✭
    The Duckinator wrote (see)

    How much ascent? image Jesus.

    Then again, the Mt Blanc Marathon doesn't look any better http://www.montblancmarathon.net/index.php?rub=&langue=an


    7500ft??  I looked at the bumpf and realised I may be about an hour or two away that week if holidays go to plan.  Quick drive over the Col du St Bernard, drop into Courmayeur, and through the tunnel.

    To run?  You've got to be kidding!  To watch!!

  • PhilPubPhilPub ✭✭✭

    Hmmm... Mont Blanc just looks silly! 

    Beachy Head marathon was 3,500ft, so I'm thinking that 3,000ft over half the distance must be extremely up and down!  I'm very proud of the fact that I managed to get round Beachy running all the way (besides straddling the odd stile), but I imagine there may be some walking involved in this one.

  • Curly - same story here.  Hilly's lungs run out quite soon at anything over threshold.  Mine rarely get to burning stage even on a 10k as my legs won't go that fast.

    When we do strides before a session or race I refuse to do them as she `beats' meimage

    However, doing good strides means she can overcook the first mile of a 5k, whilst I sit in the midpack before working my way through.  So really I should be the one doing them to fire my weaker FT fibres whilst she should not be doing them so she eases into the race!

    East Yorkshire for me too at the weekend - Beverley 10k. 4th race in 10 days.  Not bad for an old fellaimage 

  • Curly45Curly45 ✭✭✭

    Is there anything I can do on lungs side or just get fitter so I dont have to run over threshold very much?

    Race sounds good - I've never heard of that one - is it flat?

  • PhilPubPhilPub ✭✭✭

    Oh yeah, good racing BR/illy!  Getting right into this short stuff aren't you BR.  My club are missing me in the Southern League races which have already kicked off, but they're gonna have to wait.  In fact, given that our B team were relegated to the 2nd division for this year, I thought the standard might be a bit lax, but the A and B string races in the 5,000m on Saturday were won in 15:04 and 16:09 respectively.  Cripes!

    Strong lungs - another good reason for hitting the hills.  image

  • Curly45Curly45 ✭✭✭

    Oh yeah - got out of my CBA earlier to go to the track and it was closed (for five hours) for a school track meet!!! Still did my 4 mile tempo session, but around the park - turned out to be a HMP though due to poor pacing but oh well...legs still feeling good though, but looking forward to tomorrow's rest day (first since last Weds)!


  • /members/images/242368/Gallery/Elevation.jpg

    Here's the elevation I have to look forward to when I go home for summer (I live at the very beginning of the graph). Wheee!! Strong lungs here I come image 

    VO2 max repeats on hills I think might be the best idea. Perhaps some LT sessions as well? 

  • Curly - I think it's down to doing Vo2 Max training something I've not really done much of in all my years of running.

    Well my run today didn't go well.  I was going to do a longer run, but bombed after 3 miles, but struggled on to 6 miles.  I was seeing stars so knew it was time to call it a day  and save the run for Saturday.  The reason I believe are:-

    a. did not eat or drink an energy drink directly after race last night
    b. went into the presentation still having not eaten and had a glass of red wine, but nothing else
    c. didn't eat until 10pm and only half of the food, so not enough fuel
    d. poor breakfast this morning as run out of anything I liked

    A very inexperienced thing to do and one I've done many times and said I'll be better next time...

    So who makes sure they take drinks and food with them for after a race?

  • Hilly I always take a slimfast for after races, makes a huge difference to my recovery and wouldn't be without them. I even drink the slimfast before taking on water as seems to work better for me that way.

    I'm another who has legs way better than lungs!!

  • PhilPubPhilPub ✭✭✭

    Ducky  - Looks like you'll need crampons!  It's tricky replicating a true LT session on the hills since it's difficult to keep a constant effort level going (especially when running downhill, as I've noted above.)  Still, given that the same is true in a hilly race itself, it's all good practise trying to approximate threshold intensity where possible.

    Hilly - I could pack my post-race fuel bag without thinking about it since I'm such a creature of habit.  Bare minimum equals: chocolate drink, sports drink, water, banana, sandwich/wrap.  Possibly more depending on the length of the race, but I'd happily scoff that little lot even after a 5,000m or XC race.

  • BR - Good luck at Beverley. Sub 35:30? 4 races in 10 days  - is this a deliberate ploy to avoid having to do any training? image

    Interesting on the lungs/legs limiting factor, so far it has split down gender lines so it will be interesting to see if that pattern continues with more responses.

    I see theres a rather controversial film due for release tomorrow called 'Four Lions'.

    Its a story about 4 muslim suicide bombers from West Yorkshire who travel to London to target the London Marathon. Do they not know that we marathon runners know how to blow up without their help! image

    http://www.nme.com/movies/news/families-of-77-victims-protest/172579

  • My lungs definitely give up first. I presume that because my body isn't using oxygen efficiently, that's why the legs follow soon after! When that happens I just try to increase my cadence as it keeps me moving forwards at what feels like a lesser effort.

    If it's a hot day and above 10K, I take a minimum of chocolate milk and some kind of crisps (salt and vinegar, mmmm). I do seem to be very salty at the end of a race if it is hot. I suppose it's good for exfoliation image. There is usually a banana and an energy drink in the car too if they don't give them at the end of a race.

  • Zion - I used to take slimfast after every race or hard run, just got into bad habits as the years have moved on! 
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