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The Middle Ground
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Afternoon guys - 37:17 & 4th at Forfar 10k for me today. Went a long way to slaying the demons of my bogey course today. Relaxed & feeling good through 5k in 17:50 then had some really strong headwinds in the second half (pushed like crazy @ 7k and ran 4:00 for that k!).
One of my training partners was 3rd and was 1:50 down on a 10k he ran on Friday. I am left thinking of what could have been... still a good day out.
Chubby + Duck well done on the races, the wind would've been worth much more than 26secs!
Duck what's Forfar like? Never done it as it falls in festival time but any course that claims to be flat and fast is always appealing.
Has anyone else been watching the Europeans? I've really enjoyed it especially seeing Jo Pavey, Lynsey Sharp and Eilidh Child do so well. (I might have a crush on Gemili) But I do wish British Athletics would change their selection policy it was a real shame not to field a team for the men's or women's marathon. I might write an angry letter to AW!
Long-run for me today managed to go over on my ankle and injure my calf, don't think it's serious though. Time for a cup of tea and the 5000m, go Mo!
Evening!
CB: 44:14 I note! And yes conditions were not at all pleasant out today! Looks like it was similar your way, Duck: find another flat 10k soonish! You will knock a chunk off your time!
Velloo: agree with you entirely re the Euro marathon teams. We need to send people, at least for the experience. Hope your ankle/calf etc are ok! To be honest I was more impressed with Vernon (again) than Mo in that again it was more unexpected. Mo is on a hiding to nothing! Not sure what I am going to do tomorrow: Euros over, Test Match finished! May have to go for a run!
Duck - completely forgot to congratulate you on the HM pb: congrats!!! What distance are you focusing on these days?
Thirsk - great points. How do you recommend finding the best time to introduce strides?
Chubby bloke - sounds like you will smash your pb with more consistency
First week back was simply to run what felt comfortable:
6 runs, 25.19 miles @ 8:37min/mile / 166 bpm. Legs feel very fresh still as well. So quite happy with that for a first week back
CB- Sounds like you are primed for a pb soon based on that.
Duck good effort again in tough conditions.
Well done on your first week back Josh.
Not much happening here. This week has been scheduled as a do very little week having completed 13 weeks fairly hefty training without much rest. It works out just as well. I did my long run on Friday, and have had a niggle in my hip/upper itb on and off for a few weeks. Anyway that has now developed to the level that its uncomfortable to walk on. Additionally I have a streaming cold and cough which is making sleep difficult. I was going to do some cycling and gym work but I might even bin that off and have a complete rest. I dont want to make the same mistake as I did when training for London where I kept following the schedule and ended up with a cold for 8 weeks.Managed to get phsio appointment for tomorrow for hip as well. Howpefully that and lots of tlc will have it ready to go again next week.
Fingers crossed for the hip and sore throat DT.
Josh – introducing strides: assuming this week goes ok and comes off in a similar fashion to last week then I would introduce strides next week. Do two sets per week, on grass with complete recoveries between efforts. Start with 5 x ~100m and build, I use the touchline of a football pitch and run through the goal line and then decelerate, that gives me about 100m. Another way is to count to 15 in your head, 1 potato, 2 potato, 3 potato and so on…. Make sure you stay relaxed, relax your face, shoulders etc and it will transfer to your running form. Fast relaxed running is the order of the day, no straining.
Good session the other day Mr V, same session with 45-60secs recovery would be decent indicator of HM pace I reckon.
Well done CB, I have seen a few comments on conditions at Birchwood, all say it was blowy. I think you can surmise that you are in PB shape from that.
Duck, as above, wind is no good for racing in!
Alehouse / CB – are there any fast North West 10ks in October? I am thinking of binning half marathon plans and just focussing on 10k through the Autumn, I have some reasonable option locally but prepared to travel for a fast race.
velloo – euro champs have been great, impressed by the young sprinters we have coming through, girls and boys. Agreed about the Marathon, surely we could have taken a couple of sub 2:20 guys and sub 2:35 for the girls for the experience even if they weren’t going to be competitive for the medals.
One question, were there any field events taking place? If you just went by the BBC coverage you wouldn’t have thought so! Not impressed with the quality of pundits either, time to move Mr Foster on I think.
18.3 miles with some big old climbs and about 10 miles of it off road yesterday morning. Felt strong throughout with the last two miles on the road heading back to the car in 6:52 and 6:38 (slight downhill) and feeling comfortable no straining. I have a 6k race on Wednesday, not taking it seriously, but it should offer a good workout in lieu of a tempo run.
TR: the only 10k that I can think of that might be reasonably quick is the Autumn Breaker in Stanley Park, Blackpool, October 12th:
http://www.fyldecoastrunning.org/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=63
That was a sensible week, Josh: keep it there! If you do introduce strides I prefer a slightly shorter length...60 to 80 metres, with 10 to 15 to roll in and out. I would only do2 or 3, perhaps twice, this week, and then 3 or 4 next. Keep us up to speed with what you do...with "speed" kept to a minimum.
TR The Cheshire 10k at Arley Hall on Nov 2nd is billed as fast and flat - I think I'll be targeting it (mainly because it's less than 5 minutes away - mind you, by the time I've driven a 45 min round trip to drop Little Miss CB off with grandparents...)
Thanks for the suggestion CB and Alehouse.
Cheshire 10k sounds god but I am already committed to a local 10k on the 9th November then the Abbey Dash on the 16th November. Pretty sure the Missus will veto three races on the bounce, haha.
Blackpool could work Alehouse, when I suggest it i'll package it as a trip to the Seaside, the Missus wont see through that one........
8.6m @ 7:41/mi tonight, legs tired.
TR: I believe that they have "illuminations" or something like that in Blackpool at that time of year. And rock. And some sort of funfair. And a pier. And it is usually windy. Or wet. Or both. They no longer have a football team though, according to a friend who used to be a season ticket holder.
Morning all, it’s all gone quiet on here. Alehouse, as it happens we had a trip to Blackpool a couple of Novembers ago and enjoyed it tbf. A bit scruffy but fun, I might be able to sell the idea to the Missus.
I ran the Sessay Swift 6k last night, it’s a small race put on by my club on a fast course (flat with one small gentle bump). It’s a one lap course, so me and regular training partner did a lap before + strides, race and then a lap after to bring up 11.5m for the day.
Race went pretty well, I set off on the front row and was running side by side with club-mate for the first k in 7/8th place. After 1k my club-mate bridged a gap to a group of 6 in front in front, the leader and eventual winner was well clear by this point. I maintained my pace and slowly picked off people as they dropped off the group. By 4k I felt pretty strong and had caught the group fighting for 2nd place to make it a group of 4. It included my club-mate, a young lad (you may remember I mentioned him a few weeks back, he’s a middle distance specialist who trained with us and gave us the run-around) and a runner from another local club who was struggling. So after slotting into the group, there had been a couple of half-hearted surges that came to nothing, so I thought I would have a go, but again it came to nothing. So at the front of the group I took us through 5k in about 17:10 and I felt surprisingly comfortable. So I decided to go for a Crammy style wind up over the last kilometre. This broke the group up and I thought I had 2nd in the bag, but with about 400 to go my club-mate came flying past to take 2nd, I couldn’t respond to his surge. Had I waited and not surged at 5k maybe I would have had more for the kick at the end.
Finish time was 20:30 on my watch, 5:29/mi average, k splits with /mi pace:
3:22(5:26/m), 3:24(5:28/m), 3:27(5:33/m), 3:27(5:34/m), 3:29(5:37/m), 3:17(5:16/m) + 3(5:03/m).
Very happy to drop in a 3:17 kilometer after a 17:10 5k, it bodes well for sub 35 attempt at the Wetherby 10k a week on Sunday.
Good racing TR. Whats the profile of Wetherby. Flat I assume given your aim.
Still not much happening here. Cold is easing off but coughing a fair bit. Leg doesnt seem to be improving. All in all a perfect storm of ailments to prohibit anything really.
I am off on a stag weekend from Friday. Whilst everyone else is having to travel a bit, its on my doorstep in Birmingham. Tickets for the t20 cricket finals day saturday so that will be roughly 10 hours at Edgbaston on the pop. Hopefully when I recobver and come out the other end on Monday things will have improved.
Wetherby is mostly flat, the course goes over the A1 twice, so a couple of bridges, one long steady bridge, one short sharp climb. It is classed at 10kMT as it has about 2k on a farm track, from memory (I ran it in 2010) its a pretty firm track so not much slower than road. It pulls in a decent quality field and produces plenty of decent times, so I think it will give me a fair indication of my current fitness, it's just not a super fast PB course like the Abbey Dash.
The boozy weekend might be just what you need to get rid of the cold.......enjoy the Cricket, reckon that would be a good day out. I have done a Saturday on the Western Terrace at Headingley (Eng vs. SA test match) and that was brilliant.
TR - Sounds like a strong run, perhaps even better than the sub 17? Nice to see a quick last K there as well.
DT - Enjoy the stag. Hopefully a heavy weekend of boozing will sort you out!
I've got a 5k race tonight. Flat course and should be a good field as some clubs are using if for their 6 stage relay selection. Only downside is it seemed pretty windy at luch time so that could be a factor in trying to run a quick time.
Mr V, yes I reckon it was a better performance, though last night was a quicker course than the 5k last week, but I felt very much in control at 5k in 17:10. It suggests that on a good day going through half way in a 10k in 17:20 – 17:25 isn’t ridiculous and might be sustainable all the way to the finish.
Good luck tonight, temps round here are perfect and no wind, hope you get the same.
So 17.47 for me tonight which definitely wasn't great. I got my tactics wrong and reckon I missed a bit of an opportunity. I let two of my club mates go off in front at the start when I should have tried to go with them. One who I've contested sprint finishes with in my last two 10ks ran 17.08 and the other who I beat at my last 5k ran 17.21. Of course I might not have been able to live with them but should have taken the chance given I've been level or ahead of them recently. I could use the wind as an excuse but since others ran good times I don't think it can have cost too much. Strange thing is I ran 17.32 back in May when I wasn't very fit but now when I'm seemingly in much better shape I can't get near that time. Who knows, running can seem very counterintuitive at times!
Anyway focus switches to a 10 mile race the weekend after this and then the GNR the following one. Both PBs are pretty so soft so hopefully improved times are more or less guaranteed!Hard lines Mr V, I’m starting to think it’s worth committing early in shorter races, i.e. Races up to and including 5k. Be prepared to run a little harder than intended early on to stay in the race, within reason of course, not advocating running a 5 minute mile when you are aiming at 5:35.
It worked for me at the 5k last week, I just went with the pace when it felt a little too hard and managed to hold on for a PB with only a little slowing down. About 6 weeks ago I ran a track 5,000m and I let some runners get away from me and couldn’t reel them in and probably lost some time as a result. Track race tactics are a little different from the road but the broad principle is the same IMO.
I think with 10k and above, it’s more important to get into the correct pace and rhythm early on and leave the racing for later on when others are blowing up.
TR: I agree..."race" rather than "time trial" up to around 5k, and as you say, within reason, of course. It will be normal to worry that you have blown up/won't finish etc! Expect that first mile to hurt!
TR/Alehouse - Good advice from you both I think. Funny that despite the fact I've been running for about 6 years I still learn things every race! I think the thing that annoyed me yesterday was that I had planned to race the people I knew and stick with them early on. But I lost them in the crowded start and once I got free didn’t want to expend the energy of making up the gap. I'm definitely going to try and go out hard at my next 5k. My PB was run with a 5.30 first mile so obviosuly starting too fast isnt that big a deal.
Helps with change of pace which is necessary to cover gaps just as you had last night MrV.
Well done TR, sounds like you are good form, fingers crossed for the sub 35 attempt.
Mr V running really is a baffling sport, could you be carrying a bit of fatigue? Every race is a learning experience, I still feel I don't have a clue about the best way to approach them and always wonder if I should've gone harder/steadier/slower.
Tonight I went slower. Session was a 5mile threshold session so I started out slightly slower than HM pace and built up to slightly slower than 10k pace. The session felt surprisingly good even though I don't feel 'fit' at the moment. I didn't feel confident of hitting a 10 mile pace for the whole session which is why I took a graduated approach.
DT what are you all dressing up as for the stag-do?
Thirsk - great racing! What distance do you focus on? And you are absolutely right about shorter races - my approach has generally been run hard and hold on for dear life
MR V - What was your reasoning for not going with them?
Nothing exciting to report this week. 29.5 miles, 8:30 @ 162bpm. It's always nice to see quick improvements when you start from a break: increased distance, pace and lowered HR. Shame this progress will slow in a couple of weeks!
Josh, focus has been 5 to 10k for the last couple of months, although I only had one 5k race. 10k this Sunday then holiday and then more 10ks in Oct-Nov. Good to see progress, keep it going. What’s your max HR btw?
Mr V, good suggestion from Alehouse on fartlek, also mixed sessions like tempo run with hill reps at the end or mixed pace sessions of long reps followed by shorter fast reps and so help your body learn to handle different effort ‘zones’
Good work on the Tempo velloo. I like a progressive tempo, have used 6mile progressive tempos in the past:
3m@MP - 1m@HMP - 1m@10m - 1m@10k pace (no recovery!)
Tough but prepares you for a 10k race very well. No time for me to use it before next Sunday but I will use it in lead up to some of the Autumn 10ks I plan on running.
Best part of 9 miles with 4.5m @ 5:50-51/mi tempo on Saturday and 14m @ 7:37/mi yesterday to bring up 60 miles for the week. Easy week now, tapering down for Sunday. Full of cold, hope I can shift it for the weekend.
What races do folks have lined up? I know Mr V has a 10 miler and GNR coming up, anyone got anything else coming up?
Vello, we were Mexican bandits. Cricket was pretty good fun.
Sounds like your training well, though that cold won't go far if you keep it up. My cold has pretty much gone now, however I'm left with this annoying cough. Not trained since I did some strength stuff Friday. Was planning an easy run later to test hip injury.
I've got Stratford 10k on 14 September. Its the only course I went sub 40 last year. Then have Robin hood half on 28th. After that we're into some xc and few other races.
Thirsk - Just the one!? I would have thought you would be racing park runs a lot if you were focusing on 5k. Which is your best distance?
I think I know the answer to this already, but can I use my cycling max heart rate for running?
Literally sent a shiver down my spine and nearly threw up with that kind of suffering 
My max heart rate is 207 bpm, which I set cycling a few months ago. When you do that and not die, you know your heart surgeon did a pretty good job
I hate max heart rate tests - as anyone does! When I hit 207, it just felt nasty
TR – As it happens, tonight’s club run is 5mins@HMP, 5@10k, 5@5K, 5@HMP, 5@10k, 5@5k. Don’t think I’ll actually be hitting those paces but should be a nice alternating pace session. Nice, speedy tempo run for you the other day.
DT – Do you think you are in PB shape for your 10k. Remind me what your PB is?
Josh – Just that they got away from me in the crowded start and I thought I might use too much energy bridging the gap. Sounds like you building back up sensibly.
Velloo- Indeed it is! Doubt its fatigue given my modest mileage recently. Given my other recent races have been ok I’m just putting it down to an off day.
Josh – just the way it worked out, by the time I was in top shape I missed most of the good 5k’s earlier this Summer and I am missing a good 5k next week due to my wedding anniversary, parkrun doesn’t count as official PBs so not going to target one of those.
I have a list of good 5k races I will target again next year, I feel like I have a good idea what it takes to run a good 5k now, so just a case of putting into practice. As for my best distance, it’s a toss-up between 10k & 10mile.
I always thought it was tougher to hit Max HR on a bike compared to running, might be that your Max is higher than 207. But if we take 207 as your max you might want to get your easy runs into the 150s and further down the line once you start adding in proper quality workouts then look to get easy runs into the 140s. This should be easier than it seems now as you will be fitter then.
DT, sounds a great weekend. You seemed to be in good shape with those tempo runs you were banging in before, so I assume you are PB hunting?
That sounds like an excellent session Mr V, go for it, in a group 5k pace might be possible.
Nice training going on as usual. Good sessions and recent races there TR!
Unlucky with the recent 5k Mr V but sounds like you have sort of nailed what the issues could have been? I definitely find with the shorter distances (5k in particular) that I PB with a particularly fast first mile by hanging on for my life at the end to the point where the last 0.11 miles has hardly anything in terms of additional pace!
Hope you enjoyed the weekend DT and that you get back into training without any further niggles.
Good training progress there Josh. High max HR there too (last time I did mine, it came out at about 189/190).
Decent Parkrun for me on Saturday with a PB on the local course having threatened it of sorts over recent weeks (19:13 with the former course PB being 19:17 from last September). Also managed to equal my mile PB although on the local track last week which was pleasing in that I felt comfortable on finishing rather than gasping for breath on the ground (5:27.6). Apart from an out of sorts Parkrun at Cardiff a few weekends ago which I put down to being overly tired, recent training and quality sessions seem to be paying off at the moment. Hoping to run close to (maybe even) an official 5k PB tomorrow night as long as I'm able to make it after work! Should be a better time than Saturday's Parkrun regardless since the local Parkrun although flat is 90% on grass and has a three 180 degree tight turns!
Mr v- Sounds like a borderline impossible session tonight. Will you attempt to hit all the paces?
Josh- Thats a pretty high max hr. I have got close in a spin class to hitting my 5k hr but that was working at a ferocious level.
WJH- sound slike you are getting back to your best. Any 10k's or halfs planned?
Yes- Stratford i am definately pb hunting. In fact I woould rather fail miserably and blow up at 7k in trying than get a seasons best but miss a pb by 10-15 seconds. My pb is 39.47. I did this course last year in 39.50 (it is though 0.06 of a mile long).
Just done my first run in 9 days.Just a slow 40 minutes on the treadmill. Leg felt a bit stiff at first and i almost got off after 3 minutes. However I kept going and it loosened off after about 15 minutes. Not sure i'd want to do anything too heavy on it still. I just want to keep things ticking over until the 10k. I don't necessarily want a further push in fitness at the risk of turning up there semi injured, as I feel my fitness is now there to pb.
DT - Hope the niggle continues to improve. You've done a good block of training so must have an excellent chance of a PB if you can get to the start line fit and healthy.
WJH - Sounds like you are running well. Remember to go out hard tomorrow night!
Session went pretty well tonight though unfortunately my garmin went flat right beforehand. Not ideal in a multi pace session when feedback would be useful. No idea whether I hit the right paces at the right time. However overall session seemed to end up as 5 miles at just under 6m/m pace which I'm pretty happy with.