Sub 3h15

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  • long distance becomes a lot easier WAVAwise when you hit minni-age it seems! For being so enormously, outrageously old she is allowed only an extra 69 seconds for the 5K but about 20 minutes extra for the marathon! Goes against my vague feeling that older runners are better at long distance than short.

  • PMJ - Nice targets there ,I've only just made it to 70% wava once I think so far never mind 80% but I'm still getting faster ( I hope)  image

    Another long run today, longest so far , 22 miles  at 8:25/mile average , after not being well last week it was a proper death march from about 15 miles but it was a very nice day so stuck at it.

  • literatin wrote (see)

    Hmm. Still not convinced by WAVA for target-setting for me. To get 80% I would need an 18:30 5k (actual PB 18:37) and a 2:49:16 marathon (actual PB 2:56:33, 77%). I know which time I think is the bigger achievement for me though (clue: it isn't the parkrun).

    Or looking at it the other way, you are much more suited to 5k than the marathon. In this area, I don't think WAVA can help, you need to decide what you liek and stick with it. Luckily for me, my WAVA ratings are best at 10 miles and that is my favourite distance

  • PhilipMJones wrote (see)
    literatin wrote (see)
    Hmm. Still not convinced by WAVA for target-setting for me. To get 80% I would need an 18:30 5k (actual PB 18:37) and a 2:49:16 marathon (actual PB 2:56:33, 77%). I know which time I think is the bigger achievement for me though (clue: it isn't the parkrun).

    Or looking at it the other way, you are much more suited to 5k than the marathon. In this area, I don't think WAVA can help, you need to decide what you liek and stick with it. Luckily for me, my WAVA ratings are best at 10 miles and that is my favourite distance

    Surely all you can conclude is that I'm better at 5k relative to other 32-year-old women who happen to race 5k than I am at the marathon relative to other 32-year-old women who race that? If I plug the same times (my PBs) in for a man my age the marathon is considered better than the 5k.

    This supports other reports that women tend to convert better over longer distances,* and all it tells me is that even if I, like other women, may be stronger over marathons than shorter races, I don't convert upwards quite as well as the top women (though still better than men). It doesn't tell me which distance I'm better at.

    *though obviously it might not be the same women/men racing each distance.

  • Lit, the way WAVA works it only accounts for one other person, who is the (maybe imaginary) world record holder at the distance for your sex and age. It doesn't say anything at all about other runners so it removes the element that a lot of people run 5k and not so many run the marathon.

    The higher the WAVA, the closer you are to the world record. It is very crude as really it should have two numbers and SG complains a lot about this if you get him started on about 400m runners as it is relatively easy to get a higher WAVA at short distances rather than long distances: if you say Bolt does 10 seconds so 50% WAVA is 20 seconds for 100m which many people can do but Samir does 2 hours for the marathon and few people can do sub 4 hours.

  • Don't worry, I don't plan to get him started. I know how WAVA works. I just don't think it's that useful to compare how good I am at various distances given that I'm comparing myself to one world record holder (female, perhaps imaginary) at one distance, and a different one (also perhaps imaginary) at another. And I don't think you can claim it shows I'm 'better' at 5k than marathons when a man running the exact same times alongside me in both races would be 'better' at the marathon.

  • Lit, so within the limitations of WAVA it does what it says. Your marathon scores 77% and there are two equivalent 5k times: road 5k is 19:16 and track 5000m is 18:43 so with a PB of 18:37 you are faster than both these.

    The better is then interpretation: if better means you are closed to WR pace then you are better at 5k than marathon. If better means you are in a higher percentile bracket then we need to establish percentile figures for these events. With parkrun, I reckon there is now enough data to get some reasonably accurate percentile figures but these would be for people who run parkrun. To get population figures we would need to force a large and carefully selected sample of people to run a number of distances.

    So, can I say: "relative to the (perhaps imaginary) world records for a female of a certain age, you are closer to the 5k record than that of the marathon"?

  • WAVA - I use it as a motivating tool to keep me going, even though not only are my absolute times much slower (as would be expected) than the PB days, my WAVA scores are also much lower.
    EG - Marathon:  age 36 = 76%,    age 59 = 70.66%
            Half M       age 35 = 78.5%  age 59 = 71.42%

    (a caveat - the half PB was on a flat course, the recent one was a hilly course during mara training) The mara's were similar flat course - PB London, recent Manchester.

    I'd like to progress to maybe 75% ish in my 60's (not far away)image, but suspect this may be a bit too ambitious. Still as I said at the beginning, it's (amongst other factors) something to keep me going. 

    Thought I was recovered from manchester, as I felt OK on 12 miler last Sat, but this week's (so-called) easy runs have been a right plod !! So tired . . . .

    Regards, all

  • that clears that up then image

  • Crystal clear.image There's a V60 lady on the sub 3:30 thread who has a WAVA of 89.9x and is hoping for a 90% this year. She's awesome and I agree with Birch it's a great motivating tool. I've not really bothered with it much in the past but my club's Grand Prix is done in WAVA and I'm currently on second place. image
  • My Clubmate ran Rotterdam in 87% WAVA  - 2:30:50 at 43 

     

  • I have no interest in WAVA's but I'm really not into stats much anyway, although I bet Steve Ways 2:16 scored highly as he's nearly a vet.

    PMJ - In order to set some 1/2 decent PBs before I get too old, I ran a 10M and a couople of 1/2s and chased sub 60 and sub 80 last Autumn. If you are targetting sub 60 then you should defo aim sub 80 (and sub 36) too, sub 80 is easier than sub60 IMO.

  • That's shifting Birch. image
  • Oh God, my head is going to break. What???? 

  • I also wondered why you weren't setting a sub 80 goal for a half PMJ, pretty sure you ran Wokingham sub80 a couple of years ago (2012?)

  • Only after some young sprog has run me into the ground and left me gasping for air while he trots over the line for another parkrun victory, I then take a look at the WAVA scores and take that as a small victory.

    Of course , I doubt a 15 year old kid has even heard of WAVA, but who cares, eh!

  • Birch -you clubmate is still getting quicker every year too, great stuff.image

  • I broke ranks and tried a short run tonight. I managed a mile in just over 12 mins. F*%k WAVA image

  • I was only interested in WAVA scores when I could use them to show younger Lorenzito what a fine athlete I was and how my WAVA score was better than his. Can't do that anymore. image

    Abbers - am thinking of doing the Self Transcendence 10K: http://run.runandbecome.com/event/london-race-10k-030514/

     

  • I think I'll just stick to rounding down to the next reasonable target...
    Leslie - well done on the 22 miler - great going.
    Abbers - 5 weeks tomorrow. A plan is starting to formulate in my mind. It's 17 laps - 1 x 2.307km and 16 x 2.493km, so thinking of keeping it simple and aiming for 11 min laps which would give a 3:07. For a 3:08 the first lap is a bit slow, and the others should be about 11:06, I think.
    12 miles d&d. Off to Milton Keynes tomorrow, for my daughter's birthday treat - indoor sky dive.

  • TR wrote (see)

    I have no interest in WAVA's but I'm really not into stats much anyway, although I bet Steve Ways 2:16 scored highly as he's nearly a vet.

    PMJ - In order to set some 1/2 decent PBs before I get too old, I ran a 10M and a couople of 1/2s and chased sub 60 and sub 80 last Autumn. If you are targetting sub 60 then you should defo aim sub 80 (and sub 36) too, sub 80 is easier than sub60 IMO.

    Yep, Steve Way scored 93% for VLM ( I refuse to call it VMLM) and his next best is 91% so a big jump. If you look at the age grading tables, then the marathon factor becomes one at the age of 23 which is as late as any other distance (the sprints becomes one at about 19 or 20 years old) and then stays at one until you are 35 (things like 10k start to step down at 28, 7 years earlier) so marigold turning 40 is only 5 years off the peak and at 40 the grading factor is 0.9759 so about a 2% handicap. That was for men, women hit one at 21 and it only stays at one to 29 so Lit is actually on a downward slope whereas a man of her age has 3 more years of good running to goimage   Those tables do need updating.

    In regards to sub 60, I'll suck it and see. Foot seems to be almost better and a few runs this week have shown (annoyingly so!) that the fitness is there so an easy 7.5 came out at 7.0x pace. Maybe training for the marathon and not racing it is the way to go. Anyhow, first step is the next few fun months so e.g. May so far

    Fri 2 Mile race
    Tue 6 5k race
    Sun 11 5 mile race
    Wed 14 2.3 mile race
    Sun 18 10k race
    Tue 20 5k race
    Tue 27 5k race lunchtime 5k race evening
    Fri 30 5k race

    Do that for May, June and July and then see if a few longer runs in August and September can reap rewards.

    AlsoRan, you doing Maidenhead Half on Sep 7th?

  • Gul - 11 min laps sounds like a good plan to me. Makes it nice and easy to calculate progress (rather than relying on Garmin pace). 17 laps sounds a bit grim though - what's the route like?

    Lit - double congrats for turning in such a fantastic performance as you did a couple off weeks ago while you're on such a downward slope!! image

    6.5 miles for me this morning - hilly, but still managed a decent pace. 

  • PhilipMJones wrote (see)

    AlsoRan, you doing Maidenhead Half on Sep 7th?


    I'm not entering any races until I get some sign that my achilles problem improves. I have 'Fastest Local' title to defend at Maidenhead - I'd be gutted to give that up without a fight, so here is hoping.

  • Went to the gravel running track near work yesterday which is now repaired after it washed away in the floods earlier this year. Did some intervals but dodged an extra 800m after the pal I was with felt drained. He did Brighton with me which was his 4th marathon in 4 months, no wonder he's tired!

    So the reps went 2, 2, 4, 8, 4, 2, 2 with 400m recoveries and a mile there and back for a 5.75 mile workout. First interval session since early March and good to see I'm just a shade quicker when comparing the reps.

    Will vary it again next week but hopefully these sessions will help my 10k and HM times over the course of this year and build a speed base for my marathon training next winter.

    On the WAVA front, I was well pleased to break into the 70% bracket for the first time this year after my 91 min HM. Isn't Haile Gebrselassie going to set a new world record for the V40 veteran marathon in the next week or two? That will lower a few scores! image

    SB

  • I think I’ve discovered a cure for taper madness. It’s only 8 days away from my first 50k Ultra and 10 days away from the Belfast marathon and I haven’t had any taper madness at all. The simple solution is not to taper! image 12 miles run yesterday with 10 at MP but this ended up at HMP for the final two fast miles. I’ve 15 miles planned for tomorrow including a hard effort Parkrun after about 10 miles. I'm feeling great and niggle free.

    Good luck to all the racers tomorrow. 

  • Bugger, I didn't even enter any races until I was 29. If I'd known about the downward slope I could have saved myself the trouble. Need to find a sedentary sport for the middle-aged.

  • I expect the marked earliness of the downward slope is more due to an historic oddity rather than any real reason. If we take sub-3 as a mark, then women first broke 3 hours in 1971 (so if Lit, CC2, Jules etc had been born earlier, they would be record holders and not just champions) and at that time the world record for men was 2:09 for Ron Hill. In the 43 years since then, the woman's record has come down by 45 minutes and the men by 5 minutes. There has been no great physical change in genders but there has been a great change in gender equality. As the newly liberated women filter through the system, the level of competition at the higher age groups will become higher and the WAVA gradings will even out.

  • Abbers, like you I've got nothing entered and I like the idea of not planning anything too much and just entering at will.Good the knee was ok on your 4 miler.

    That's the good thing about the shorter distances as you can do one every week if you fancied it. Those are some tough targets PMJ to get 80% WAVA.

    I'm with you 00-51 and more time directed. I did a 18.34 Parkrun last week and have got a 3 mile relay this Sunday. I have never got under 18 minutes when running just a 3 miler (although have done on a 5k Parkrun), so it would be good to see a 17.xx time image

    You're in good form Badbark - tapers are for Whimps!

  • Lorenzo - Looks a decent option. Wish there were more races local to me! One of the drawbacks in living a more rural life.

    Gul - 17 laps? image I can see the advantage in running laps in a race, knowing what's coming and how many times, but 17 might be a few too many for me! Still, you're training really well, so you should be confident of your target.

    AR - Good luck with the Achilles. Being out running again (albeit only a mile) must be a positive sign?

    SB - nice reps. Anything lined up, race-wise?

    BB - something of a mileage machine these days. Targets for your upcoming races?

    KR - Be the best you can be, right? As long as I know I've given 100%, that's the best result I can get on the day.

    Nets last night after yesterday's 6.5, and shoulders are complaining today! Still, gets it out of the way before league action begins on May 10th.

  • Well It'll be parkrun madness tomorrow. Trying to make up for turning up 3 minutes late for the start. Still out sprinted someone for 70th place. Cheeky blighter tried to steal my chip too! Huh was great running through the crowd though! Real confidence boost. Should have been 17th though had I caught the start lol. 

    5 today with 8x400's. Twas a good run. Glad everyone getting back into the swing. 

    PMJ- soon we will all be in an open category as the differences will be so minimal. I am one of the guys on here that is miles slower than the talented ladies on this thread. Sub 3 is great running. 

     

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