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Sub 3h15
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yes, same here - no fancy watch, but even if I had, would just be too much info, in my case. I've always been a "get out there and do the miles" sort of person (and as regulars will know, I do like recording the miles), so my basic GPS gives me distance covered, and that covers my needs . . . and I still prefer to record in the small pocket diaries
just record distance, type of session, companions (if any), weather (only if it impinges eg High wind, torrential rain, etc )
Blimey DT19 is it worth all the hassle to get an entry fee back?. I have Strava Premium but am moving back to basic membership mid year, as I can't justify the cost.
PMJ that's a great explanation- with a nice basic conclusion 'if you don't heel strike, don't worry about it'.
I did 9 miles today in a blizzard in Switzerland- great fun. Unfortunately the beer and food are undoing all my good work.
I gave up on my training log when I joined Strava. Now I just update my race log. I have a book with every race going back to the early 90's
I ran 20 minutes on a woodway treadmill today. If anyone wants to learn to move from heel striking to mid/toe, that's one place to start.
To chip in on the cadence thing. I’m definitely at lower end.
5k PB 6:15 pace 177 cadence -this is an old PB.
10k PB 6:14 pace 172 cadence
HM PB 6:42 pace 174 cadence
Mara PB 7:21 pace 167 cadence
My Easy runs at circa 8mm tend to be about 160. So my cadence generally increases as I get faster but so does my stride length it seems.
My fancy new Garmin (935 - i’m a Big fan) also tells you vertical ratio which is (per Garmin) a cost to benefit ratio. Cost being vertical oscillation and benefit being distance travelled. Per Garmin lower vertical ratios are found in more experienced/faster runners. Which echos PMJ’s post.
I only have it for my 10k but my vertical ratio for races/intervals is lower than my easy running. Basically I stride further and go up and down less as I speed up/push the pace.
Now whether there is any easy improvement there I don’t know?
I need to go for a run . . . .
Birch - you can't beat pen and paper.
OO - running in a blizzard must be fun. Impressive that you have been racing since the early 90s (or earlier) let alone keeping a record of them!
Rich - this is all getting way too technical for me! I'm with Birch
11 miles this morning and I can't remember running in such a gale before; struggling to stop moving backwards at some points. So it wasn't the best conditions for 18 x 400m tempo intervals. In fact, one or two of the intervals were into such a headwind that the subsequent recovery was done at a faster pace!
I've often wondered about racing in the 90s and before. My first race was in 2010 so everything was on the Internet.
How did you get full access to race results? Were they posted to all participants?
Good work, Gul. I think I would have just taken to the treadmill this morning.
Rich, that is pushing my limits to technical as well. Taking it back a level, for those with a swanky garmin, I just wonder what v02 rating you get? I am consistently frustrated as mine swings between 57-59 and has been for 2 years despite my times over all distances consistently improving. I also have a friend who could not be any more at my level and his goes between 64-66. I tend to ignore it as a point of value, I just don't get why it seems so low.
30 mins bike and 30 mins adaptive motion trainer (tarted up cross-trainer, but the movement is a little more like running) this morning.
The following week, all runners' times were published in the Daily Telegraph. Those of us in the 4.45 area had to wait until the Thursday edition!
For Boston last year, I had my chip time available on-line via the Boston Website athlete tracker, it appeared in the Boston Marathon App, It was emailed to me, later in the year they sent me a certificate with it on and inside that package there was a commemorative magazine where it also appeared. Progress, I guess!
Pyramid sesh at the track tonight...
I'm into P&D 55-70mpw for VLM this year. It's been tough going but on top of it. This Sunday calls for 18m with 10m@MP. This session fills me with dread esp at this early stage of training. Have been reading about breaking it up into pieces being beneficial esp for age-group runners, I'm 44. Therefore, question is this. How would this session (2mEasy, 4m@MP, 1mEasy, 4@MP, 1mEasy, 4@MP, 2mEasy) compare to the prescribed P&D session? I'm doing Bramley20 and Finchley20 later in the training campaign which could then provide more constant MP practice.....
Hope training's going well for all, thanks for any feedback on this question - be much appreciated.
Just joined the forum and really good info on this thread.
I've signed up to do Newport in Apr with the aim of getting a London 2019 good for age (sub 3:15, 45 years old).
Marathon PB - 3:25, Brighton 2017
Half - 1:32, Sep 2017
10k - 40:00, Nov 17
5k - 19:38, Nov 17 (parkrun, not a fast course)
Been putting in 2 months of consistent aerobic base building and into week 2 of my mara plan (Sage Canaday, Boston qualifier).
Looking forward to sharing and seeing training journeys from others.
As for VO2 max mine just hit a new high of 60 after yesterday’s 400m intervals. It was down at 52 in August after a couple of months of virtual inactivity due to injury/illness so it definitely is a fair trend reflection for me.
That said for your Garmin to give you a fair estimate of VO2 max you need to have input a realistic HR Max and weight. DT19 - Could explain why your friend’s reads much higher - they may of widely overestimated HR max or underestimated weight or maybe you have done vice versa?
I do find in races I tend to run 2-3 levels below what my Garmin estimates my race predictions to be based off the VO2 max (particularly for 5k through to HM, marathon not sure I’ve yet run one after ideal training). For instance at 60 it estimates a 35:20 10k but it’s only about 7 weeks since I ran an all out 38+. While i’m definitely fitter now and could go maybe 37.x I doubt 35.x would happen!
Decent table of Garmin race predictions found here:
<a rel="nofollow" href="https://cicerunner.wordpress.com/2014/07/11/garmin-fr620-race-times-from-vo2-max/">https://cicerunner.wordpress.com/2014/07/11/garmin-fr620-race-times-from-vo2-max/</a>;
Orapidrun - not following that plan but I did my final 8 at MP on Sunday gone as part of 16 total in week 4 of my plan. Was dreading it before but surprisingly ok - sure I could of done 2 more at MP. Sometimes hard to have the faith this far out though so understand. Afraid I have no idea the effect of splitting up the effort.
never done P&D myself, although my last marathon in 2015 was a modified (for my then age (60) ) version of the 55-70 schedule. Those who have done it (and there's a few on here better placed than me, therefore, to advise), I think would say it's best if followed as closely as possible.
However, as VLM is 3 months away, how do you know what MP will be? I'd normally decide on this nearer the time, probably in March, after a tuneup race (and, of course, you have your 20 milers). At the moment, I'd say your proposed session looks a bit tough for this stage of proceedings, with 3 segments of 4 miles within the 18.
A key session of mine (but 4 weeks before VLM) was 7 laps of a 5K loop in easy,tempo,easy,tempo,easy,tempo,easy fashion - the tempo segments all run to "feel". I wouldn't be doing sessions like yours until late Feb, early March (and wouldn't have done so when I was your age either. But , I obviously defer to P & D, and, as I say, lots on here have done really well on that plan.
Good luck, anyway - as long as the work is done one way or another, the race should take care of itself . . . . .
results - yes, I started racing in 1986, and paper results via SAE usually the way. Fortunately, I still have copies of my half marathon PB result (1990), and a particular favourite, the "GEC 20" - the course was a 3.333 mile loop completed 6 times, and the results are broken into split times ; Marathon PB was London 1991, and I have the certificate which was sent out (and the pic on my avatar)
Gul - nice session - very good discipline to get that done in the gales, and amusing re the speed of recoveries . . . reminds me of the time, many years ago, when I was doing a track session at the same time as an international athlete. His recoveries were quicker than my efforts . . . . .
GDawg - enjoy the pyramid . . . .
great run today - the snow meant a blank yesterday , and had to avoid the slush today, so a run into the Lower Don Valley and the associated industry here today - my friend was doing 20, so I joined her with intention of 15, but I got the logistics of our meeting point a bit askew, so I ended up with 17.5 - we did a tour of the area I grew up in then past old steelworks etc, even a stretch along here
(that's the M1on the upper level , and a lot more cars and trucks whizzing past on our lower level) -
but needs must . . . . . & great to enjoy the camaraderie & shared effort with a good friend.
Really pleased to bag the 17.5 as well . . . early days yet, but maybe there's a bit of life in the VoGit yet . . . .
I note that in 7th Jan 2015 my session says:
The campaign has begun! 16 with 11@MP, 5 laps of the Serpentine
I was 49 at that time and MP was just under 7 minutes per mile (3:00 target). I think that once you are up and running it is easier to carry on. I find the difficult thing is getting into MP and once I come off it is hard to get back. If you think it is hard, do you have a friend to run alongside, that should help?
Do you have plans for Bramley and Finchley? There is no 20@MP session in P&D. Both are lappers (Bramley 2 and Finchley 4)
Life before the Internet...how did we manage!!
I think people when using p and d forget the name of the book as being 'advanced' marathon training. I tend to run at mp (or something in that area) routinely as a session when I am not in schedule and just doing base stuff. I think it is a good pace to run at as 5-6 miles (if you get the pace right) should get everything turning over and keep you in touch with faster stuff without really putting you under too much strain. I think the mistake many make with mp is to run it at desired mp very early on, in big sessions like that. Desired mp will come after 3 months training hopefully. If you are at that level now then mp on the day should be faster. MP running is very tiring if you are not running at actual mp on any day. That is way I judge my effort according hr. I usually consider 160bpm average as an effort over shorter distances that is right for mp.
Hi orapidrun and running gas!
Rich, the race prediction stuff is complete pie in the sky. My vo2 is currently 58 and the closest time for me is 1.21.15 half.
We have in fact had this discussion around hr. I consider that his is too high and he thinks mine is too low. My max hr was on auto detect as 187 so I have turned that off and manually raised it to 190 which I think is reasonable based on where my hr spikes to in a 5k. I also find that every race I run over 5k I will always get a training effect of 5.0. My mate (and other friends) rarely get above 4.5.
Threshold session done over lunchtime on the spin bike. Going to go out tomorrow lunchtime and attempt a longer run to see how I react.
Ive entered the Ashby 20 again. I tend to run that at mp plus about 10-15 seconds a mile.
On deliberation and reading the above I think I'll step it back to 4,4,2 at MP and stick to the 10 rather than 12, I'm good for my intended MP (perhaps not 26.2m, yet) at the moment but looking to change things up a bit for variety. Bramley and Finchley can provide the continuous efforts. However, Bramley is down in P&D as a long run so will stick to the top end of easy pace whereas Finchley is 14@MP. In all likelihood will aim to do one lap of Finchley at an easy pace and then do three at MP, it's four/five weeks out from VLM.
Thanks for the advice all, appreciate it!
Runninggas 10 min pb sounds doable with a bit of effort.
3 easy miles today ,definitely no mara pace !
Pyramid session tonight (2,4,6,8,10,12 and down...) really brought out the bug I still have. Poxy thing, I feel ok but running hard sees me coughing up gold watches as the chest clears.
After a vigorous warm up, I told rhe coach that I wouldn't go full beans for the session, so he set me a pace of doing all reps at 20 min 5k pace.
I came in well under that for all reps and with the final 200 averaged 4.55 pace.
A quality session and legs had loads left in the tank, just this bloody chest!!
Jool - sounds like a posh machine.
orapidrun - welcome to the thread! Re the 18 with 10@MP, I'd give it a go. Make sure you use the other 8 miles to do a good warm-up, say 4 miles @ MP+20%, 4 miles @ MP +10%. And remember they're only a rough guide to pacing; go by feel! If not then splitting it up is a decent alternative.
RunningGas - welcome to you too. Good luck with the sub 3:15 attempt!
Birch - nice anecdote! Looking good with that 17.5.
OO - memorising mile splits - did you do lots of shorter distances then?
GD - nice session; shift that bug soon!
12 miles this morning. 6 @ 8:27 and 6 @ 8:02. Legs not recovered from yesterday yet!
Gul- I don't think I've ever trained before 8am. Id rather go out at 10 pm (I don't though) than go out that early.
GD- The pyramid you set out I assume the reference is to metres and not time? That's a pretty big session even on metres. When I do intervals I tend to rarely go beyond 4k in volume. I am not entirely sure I rate the benefit of intervals v the risk when I am in mid flow training and always feel I am better off using the time and energy to run a session more around mp/hmp level.
I am going to push things out over lunch as my leg isn't reacting badly to any of the runs. Going to aim for 5 miles. I am sure there will be some tightening/discomfort but wonder if this is nothing more than scar tissue and therefore some miles will in fact help work that out.
Since I've introduced intervals, hill reps and other speed work into my campaigns, I've seen a good rate of improvement, going from 3.25 in Paris in 2013 to 3.09 in Berlin and Abingdon in 2016 and 2017 respectively. Half Mara time is also down to 1.26 (Surrey half 2017). All new GFA times (just turned 50).
In campaign I typically do 4 or 5 runs per week. There will always be speed work and long runs, all varied stuff just to keep me from getting bored as well as train the various physiological systems for speed and endurance. Seems to work well. I ordered the P&D book yesterday. I use some of their themes already but will further fine tune with their info from the book.
Legs feel good today and ready for an easy 16 miler tomorrow, can't say the same about the chest, not too bad but will keep it sensible.
It's interesting how we all approach things differently to end up in the same place, in that you and I are equivalent standard.
5 miles easy over lunch, longest since injury forced me to stop 12 days ago. No actual discomfort but the hip area when very tight after about 1 mile then loosed right off after 3.5 so I was running quite freely after that. Whether there are further problems will be apparent come the morning.
I think I just had a better memory then Gul.
Don't talk to me about hips DT19- mine have creaked for years.
London this w/end- no doubt a parkrun then LSR Sunday taking in Greenwich Park at some point. I'll do well to reach 45 which below plan.
Hope your 16 miler goes well G-Dawg. Those doing VLM but not living in London- train tickets now on sale for mara weekend! I'm all booked up.
GD - enjoy your easy 16 miler.
OO - I think I did too, but I can't be sure.
15 miles this morning. 7 @ 8:26 and 8 @ 7:41, so more of a steady pace to finish with today. Brings up 70 for the week and will probably stay there, as I now have an unexpected preaching appointment tomorrow morning.
Welcome to all the new threadsters - there are a number of on here who were here from the start of this thread (Dec 2010!) having decamped from another thread on RW, and I for one still learn something new every week.
Interesting discussion on cadence, although I don't measure it myself. The closest I get is counting steps when doing reps and aiming to be turning over fast than 180 / minute. Not terribly scientific. certainly in comparison to PMJ's explanation.
Good shout out for Madbark on this week's MT podcast.
Sounds like a good outing this morning Gul and a very decent mileage there for the week as well.
G-Dawg - hope the chest problems clear out soon. Sounds annoying to say the least.
DT19 - I'm in the Gul camp of early morning runs (albeit not quite as early as him). I think I'd struggle to get to sleep if I went out running at 10pm.
A bit of a mixed week of running for me:
Mon: easy commuting run (2.5 miles each way) after the weekend's exertions
Tues: disappointing tempo section within an 8 miler - really struggled to get below 7 min / mile an am just hoping that that was just residual tiredness rather than fitness downturn
Wed: 12.5 miles of commuting
Thurs: Club evening handicap - just under 4 miles (2 laps x 1.9 miles) on the road, but with a cheeky hill towards the end of lap. Happy with an average of 6:30 pace given the dark, twists and turns and the hills and a season PB on the course by some margin. Managed to overtake Mrs L in the last 20m.
Fri: another easy commuting run
Sat (today): a muddy (very muddy in places) off road run - 15.5 miles in total. P&D said 17 but I figured that a tough 15.5 would have the same benefit.
Total of 50 for the week, so that's good. In Bath this evening for a Uni friend's 50th so will treat tomorrow as a rest day on a number of different levels.