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Sub 3h15
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I think I may have got it! I need to slow down if I don't want to get injured. I will do my best but thanks for your guidance, especially the forthright stuff like that from TR. Sometimes I need things spelt out for me!
PMJ - you must have been young when you ran your first one. I was just 22 in 86 and I recollect that you are a year or two younger than me.
Dylan Man - made me laugh reading about your father & also think back to those times. I ran my first one in Paris and there were only about 4 or 5 drink stations serving cups of water (obviously). I don't think energy drinks had been invented. When I ran my PB in 1994 not much had changed. I sometimes wonder if I'm overthinking things but then remember I'm nearly 20 years older so need to be more careful.
Minni - I think that has been my problem with MLR's up to now. Wasn't sure of the point of them. However, I will follow the wisdom on here and accept P&D know what they are talking about and follow the plans as they are but remembering to listen to my body and take extra rest if it's needed.
I've been deliberately enthusing myself because I feel that this will be my last chance to make myself a decent runner again. However, there's a long way to go before my race day so I'd better temper it a little.
Thanks evceryone for your input/advice!
Consistently Consistent Sub 3:15 Race List...
.... is now out of date! MsE is the last on the list and not doing that marathon. I've added another sheet but I know some struggled to access it from various devices. Do we need a new list on here or do you want to use the sheet?
Wise words as always TR. Not just physical but I think mental burnout is a big risk from being too keen at this stage.
1986 - The year I started secondary school. I suddenly feel young again
My dad's first and only marathon was in 1982. I remember running the final 200m with him. He had a sprint against 1 other guy and managed to beat him, so finished last but 1! He completed it in 6hr 23min, which gave me the motivation I needed to do my first in under 3hr11m30sec!
Having followed Drs advice for 1 week, I couldn't hold on for 1 more and tried out the treadmill for 1hr. Boring, but god, it feels good to be running again.
DS2 - not specifically aimed at you, just a general thing having read a few comments about PnD, paces, MLRs, and folks itching to get going. Once marathons become part of your daily life and you bag your sessions, go to work and forget about them then you start saving a lot of mental energy. Just bag sessions and save the worry over race day until the last few days.
LR and MLR's are never just a jog when following the MP + 20% and 10% rule, hopefully this time around will be 8.10 and 7.25 if 6.45/ 6.50 is my PMP.
The lactate threshold runs are not just a 1 or 2 mile warm up before hitting HMP+ pace for a few miles. 12 with 7 @ LT pace for instance.
Even the VO2 runs have a serious amount of miles in them before hitting the fast stuff. 11 miles with 5 * 1200m @ 5k pace! And that one is followed the next night by a 14 MLR.
Very tough workouts, so the recovery runs and rest days are most welcome.
As for training, I'm with TR - just train and don't get het up with details.
You volunteering to be Keeper of the List Poacher?
Dylan Man - I've always wondered how they used to run decent times back in the 80's without any gizmos, gels, compressions ocks etc. Must have been just a mansuit in those days.
Wise words TR as always. Did a track session last night and wanted to do 8 x 1000m reps. After 5 (@ 3.35 - 3.37 times) I thought, why am I pushing it. I've got no races planned for the rest of the year. So cut it short and ran an extended route home of 4 miles in a very saintly 8.20 pace and it felt fantastic. Plan to go out tomorrow night for a nice & slow 10 miler, anything over 80 minutes will be good!
KR- I did a 6 week build up to Amsterdam, the Ultra was 8 weeks before so after that I did 2 easy weeks of 15-25 miles, then did 6 weeks avg. 51miles. I did a weekly 10mile tempo run at 7mm pace, my long runs were 13 (Ashbourne HM), 20, 16, 14, 21 (Redbull Steeplechase). I was also cycling to work 1 day a week which was a 30mile round trip. I personally think the short build up worked for me. As long as you have a good endurance base the marathon specific stuff can come much later in a plan, avoiding peaking too early or injury risk. For VLM I plan to do lots of strength work by doing hilly fell runs, very slowly, but 15-25 miles, a couple of speed session each week and a mid week 10 miler. I will do these without a watch and only come to using a watch and calculating paces in the last 8 weeks.
TR - very good point. Have had a couple of quiet days at work and thought I'd make the most of it. Doesn't happen very often. My business partner is the most unhealthy person I know - smokes a lot! Drinks a lot! and never gets any exercise so we rarely talk about running etc!
I just need to get running into some kind of perspective. With various work and family commitments this is the first time that I feel i can properly commit to running a marathon properly for many years. Once it just becomes part of my daily routine it will be a good thing I guess.
Keir - that's a great story about your Dad and a great way to set an initial target for your first marathon.
Knight Rider - it's amazing to think that since the heady days of British marathoning in the mid to late 1980's (Messr's Gratton, Spedding, Jones, Evans to name a few) we have failed to produce runners in the past 15 odd years that can get within even 4 or 5 minutes of those times, and yet they just had a pair of running shoes a stop watch and water. I think sometimes they were made tougher in those days! Those guys i mentioned all had full-time jobs as well/ Incredible!
Moof - I can't work out if you are trying to frighten me or encourage me that my time to run hard will come in the next few months?
I sort of changed my perspective on recovery runs. Instead of thinking of them as runs to help me get recovered, I think of them as training runs to learn how to run on tired legs. Maybe I should question if I am running the hard sessions the day before too hard as always the next day my legs are pretty tired.
From a phsiological perspective, I think it is about recruiting additional muscle fibres into action - I think it works by the regularly used muscle fibres being exhausted and able to deliver a lot less than if rested. The body has no choice but to recruit the lesser used muscle fibres. Well that's my theory anyway.
I actually think that and MLRs the day after a speed session (typical of the P&D schedule) is one of the most valuable sessions to improve efficiency and hence aerobic speed.
Bike it - that's very interesting. I've been a bit worried by the thought of doing a MLR the day after speed sessions. Whenever I've tried to run the day after intervals in recent years I've found it an uncomfortable struggle. It's probably because I haven't done enough base building prior to starting specific marathon training. I will need to make sure it's different this time.
Can I ask if this combination became easier as your training developed or does it remain tough? Or is it mostly a mental thing?
Following the 55-70 plan for VLM this year got me into great shape and any run of 15 or below, psychologically felt easy. (The 26.2 was a bit of a git though!).
But as others have said, its not really the plan but just getting out there and consistently getting the training done.
A question- when I run in the evening and keep my heart rate below 75% max, average pace is about 8.15. If I run in the mornings at 75% max HR, my pace is about 8.45. Any ideas why?
Excellent posting, TR - just listen to him, folks !
My first mara was age 31 in 1986, my PB was 1991 (age 36), half PB 1990 (age 35), 10K PB 1994 (age 39). Last sub-3 was at age 47. No garmins, HR monitors or gels, some maras @ 2:5x with just water available. To be clear, I'm not a luddite who goes on about "in my day" (I do own a Garmin), it's merely that all the "modern" extras, whilst having their place, are just the icing on the cake - and (some) folks do seem to expend a lot of mental energy worrying about their "gel strategy" for example rather than maximising the actual running.
Birch - 10 years between us in age but very similar best times from a similar era. I have to say that I started getting a bit carried away with gel strategies etc, but I did a sponsored bike ride last year and the Doc really encouraged us not to use them. Since then I've hardly bothered and haven't seemed to suffered for it - just no longer need to worry how best to carry them! I'm not a luddite either and, also, own a Garmin but don't tend to rely on it for anything other than measuring time and distance. I sometimes think I'm wasting it's capability but it doesn't float my boat.
I've gone back to basics and seem to be enjoying running simply for what it is!
I'm a semi-luddite. I have a Garmin but only to record mileage and pace. I don't follow a plan for the marathon either, just target 4-5 * 20+ miles in the build up. 2 races over 20 miles were particularly beneficial last year. All of my PB's were mid 90's except the marathon which was VLM last year. Gels are good for marathon racing but I try to avoid for training.
Ok so TR has said all the right things,short and to the point just the way it should be.
I have a garmin no heart monitor so don't know what you shoiuld train at and am not really bothered.My take on marathon running have a good base long runs are most important then the MLR then you start to add the speed sessions.
That said SLR and MLR i always finish the last third faster seemed to work for me.Someone on here I think once said "you have to spend more time in the hurt locker" i use that mantra a lot...
Initially, when I started running, my Garmin beeping all over the place to stay in target zones for pace / heart rate etc. Over the months is has become a glorified 'black box' - if I crash I will study it! Not worn the Garmin since the last race - very much in recovery mode.
I tend to go by feel and generally studying the black box afterwards I find
- my long runs are too fast
- my VO2 sessions too slow
- my tempo sessions about right.
(according to the powers that be)
For long runs, I don't touch gels, sports drinks or other wierd concoctions. In P&D style I like to run my tanks dry. Hopefully store more glycogen and get a boot from gels in a race.
DS2 - my take on it that it is remains tough. For me it's the overall fatigue plus the load of the speed session that makes the next-day MLR tough.
Remember this phase of P&D also has LSR with 10-12m of MP running a few days before or long tempo runs on the Friday before, which build up the fatigure
Bike it - I suppose it wouldn't be the challenge it is if it wasn't going to be tough! Strangely looking forward to it, though!
efc-col - it does seem that running pregressively faster on the longer runs seems to be the way to go and, thankfully, that is something I've always tended to do as well.
Also-ran - I think I may be something along those lines as well. I would think that getting the tempo runs right will be of most importance though. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
I remember running the Great North Run in 1984 without even a stop watch and definately no gels or sports drink. That said, I find the feedback that a Garmin provides irrisistable even though I would still claim to be running to feel.
Having also used a HR monitor since 1994 and a fascination for GPS technology, I just couldn't resist the Garmin when they first appeared. And, of course, the best thing about the gadget is that you can spend hours after a run analysing the data
Managed 9 miles this lunch-time outside, using the out and back run I use for the P&D mid-week 14 milers. A good reminder of the fun that lies ahead
I was at university so was 19 or 20: very young for a marathon but it wasn't even called one "Cambridge Boundary Run". In those days they were very off beat abd you could roll up on the day, pay a few pounds and run: none of this three figure entry fees. I am 47 now if anyone is counting.
Hard to compare the 80s and today. Definitely a lot of hard men out and about but also a lot of injuries and burnouts. Look at e.g. Ron Hill, a great runner and world record holder but he burned brightly and shortly: set world records in 1970 and was done by 1972. A lot of people these days are looking at 3 or more Olympics as a marathon career.
PMJ - very true, but Ron Hill has run every day for about 300 years!!! It's a good point though, if my memory serves me right the great DEEK was considered the most consistent marathoner because he ran world class times over a longer period. Not sure what it was but maybe 5 or 6??? Certainly not the 8 or 10 they are looking at now. I still find it a huge disappointment that Britain can't produce an absolute top level one, especially this year with the Olympics here. I guess when Mo makes the move up it will raise our excitement level.
Should have added that I actually never follow a schedule myself, so if folks dont want to then thats fine. I was just spouting my observations re PnD and trying to stay fresh. If I was to follow a plan then I would use PnD, but I have to include Bike and Swim too and fit my training in around all the other stuff I'm involved in so I dodnt wnat a schedule telling me what I should be doing. And FWIW my MP usually ends up around 6:30 ish and I run lots of slow miles in marathon build up.
Talking of the old days, theres a lad at my youngests school that played in my cricket team for a season and is involved in local teams etc I was talking to his grandad the other day (who I know was an international) and the grandad was telling me how he used to run up the hill I run up and do intervals on the local roads etc now he was 1:47 for 800m good over 50 years ago and if it was good enough for him..........Made me smile when he politely said that if you can run sub3 then you are a proper athlete, I was thinking more that if you could run 800m that quick back then you are a proper athlete.
Here is a good piece on recovery. P&D has some quite long recovery runs 5-6 miles if I remember rightly. My recovery runs are all around 3 miles although I have been known to do two in a day.
Here is a piece on muscle fibre recruitment, which I don't understand so if anyone can explain it in simple terms....?
Minni - muscle recruitment? I'll try.....!
Put a Ferrari alongside an Astra. Empty fuel tanks and put back a gallon in each - now tell the drivers to go as far as they can. Which one will go the furthest?
Which one are you?
What the article is getting at is how we can train each type of muscle fibre to act economically (Astra) even if they start out fast (Ferrari). So on long slow runs when layer 1-5 (in the example), conk out we can call on 6, 7 and so on.
Now here's the trick - if we push too hard then 6, 7 etc never develop the Astra charactersitics but stay as a Ferrari (by robbing fuel - glycogen). We don't notice,
We arrive at mile 18 feeling brilliant, but in fact by mile 21 we're dead because fibres 6 etc were never properly converted....and by then it is too late of course. Gobble all the gels you like at that stage and the Ferrari muscles will just suck it up.
Solution: long slow miles early in training to wean the Ferrari fibres off glycogen and adapted to economic, fat burning for as long as possible.
Now read the article again please, to make sure I'm not barking up the wrong tree!
Mike Sheridan- Thanks for that, I'm off for another look. Hopefully this time I won't lose the will to live.