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HADD training plan
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MarkF, I was hoping that you had finished. Thought you might come back and say that you did the training and got injured, or dropped out or something. I'm seriously impressed!
Debra, I know what can be achieved over a 20M race (in the same ballpark has marathon, maybe slightly higher), so using your 159 as 87%, 100% came out at 183. Margin for error = 3 beats giving 180-186.
QED.
Mace, Don't worry about the training history. I was going to try and assess whether it was appropriate you stepping up to the next phase (80% running), but it seems I was a little late with my post.
My thoughts are that you will be fine, especially taking it in small chunks as suggested by DrDan.
Hi there, can I join in?
I've been doing some base training for a few weeks and am now running about 30 miles a week. In the initial couple of weeks i saw some improvements from 8km/h to about 9km/h, but have now plateaud for a while (admittedly, i'm not very patient!) Not really sure where i should go from here.
Max heart rate i've recorded was 187 which was at the start of a race, and i've been running at an average HR of 140 to 145. Should i be throwing in some runs of say 145-150?
I'll not go through details of runs, but my running log is here http://www.runningfreeonline.com/athlete/mea00csf for anyone who wants to be nosy about specifics...
Hi mea00, welcome to the thread. To see improvements in this phase of training takes time and patience. No mystery or big secret, just run easily, increasing the time on your feet (or number of runs per week) gradually. Aim to increase by no more than 10%, until you are running about 7 hours per week. Keep the running down to ~70% of max HR. Don't worry about pace or distance, concentrate on time and HR.
mea - welcome and good luck
Dr Dan - yes, 8:14 was surprisingly comfortable as i got into it and , dare i say, i think i'll be a bit braver next time
Brian - ok and thanks for the vote of confidence
. At the moment i'm at about 35m per week, shall i stay at around that level and build up to about 10-20% of mileage at around 80%HR over the next 6 weeks ? And for my HALF at the end of Sept, would I carry on as i'm doing or should I change anything for the HALF ?
Well... week 1 complete for me... four runs in total...
66 mins @ 146bpm - 6:16/km
31 mins @ 143bpm - 6:02/km
29 mins @ 144bpm - 5:39/km
74 mins @ 147bpm - 5:48/km
That sets down a base for comparison. If I can get down to about 5:00/km over the coming months I'll be over the moon.
First major test today passed with flying colours.... some bloke had the cheek to overtake me and I resisted the (very strong) temptation to bury him on the next hill
mace, probably not a good idea to increase both pace and distance, so I would stay at you current time-on-your-feet per week whilst you become comfortable with the 80% runs.
On the half preparation, I wouldn't do anything too different from what you are running now. Maybe increase your long run to ensure endurance over the 13.1M.
If/when you get comfortable with the 80% runs, with a long run of about 2 hours, then maybe it would be appropriate to build in some tempo work.
MarkF, Good benchmark week for you. Nice one on the discipline
MarkF ... yep, base training is not good for the ego
. "I'll see you at the next race" is something I often think when I'm overtaken on one of my 70% runs
.
mace ... yes, sub-LT sessions shouldn't be that tough, if they really are sub-LT. Looking forward to seeing how things progress.
I might do a spontaneous sprint tri in 10 days, so I think I'd better do some swimming/cycling sessions over the next 6-7 days
.
But DrDan, you won't see them - they will see you, disappearing into the distance
Hi Brian,
Thanks for the suggestions. I think I'm slowly starting to see the program I can follow. Just to confirm, I should bank on at least two runs per week: the 80% run (90 min with 70 min @ 80%) and a long run. So one question is whether I should being doing a second 80% run each week or perhaps build that into the long run itself each week (like 1/2 the run @ 70% and the second half at 80%)?
If I were to do just the 80% and long run each week, my schedule would look as follows:
M easy
T easy
W 80% run
Th Easy
F Easy
Sat Easy or weights or rest
Sun long run
If I were to add a second 80% run, I would do the 80% runs on say Tuesday and Friday with the long run on Sunday.
Another question is about the long run each week. I filed away your suggestions for the 20+ mile runs, but what to do on the non-20 wks? Should I just plan to run something like 14 to 18 miles on the other weekends (all easy or a mix)? I guess I was hoping to plot out the long run for each week now so that I can lock that in and just fill in my easy running around those runs and the 80% runs.
Here is my best guess as to what my long runs should be per week (see next post for this as when I pasted my excel table in all was scrambled). You could edit as you see fit. I also wanted to ask you about step back/recovery weeks. How often do you do them and how do you cut your effort for those weeks (no 80% efforts at all; just reduce overall mileage on all days by a certain % with equal effort still in place, etc?)? Once again, lots of questions. Perhaps I can put up the final plan for others to see/use when it's worked out. Worst case it will make for an interesting experiment.
So here is my long run schedule by week. To be honest, not sure if this is at all correct. Advice welcome. Also note that on some weeks there are local races I could enter.
wk1 20 m (ran 70% effort in 2 hr 53 min last week...too long this early, but is done)
wk 2 15 m
wk 3 14 m
wk 4 17 m
wk 5 14 m
wk 6 16 m
wk 7 18 m (or could race 1/2 marathon)
wk 8 14 m
wk 9 20 m easy
wk 10 14 m
wk 11 20 m progressive
wk 12 14 m (or could run 15 mile race this day)
wk 13 20-22 m hard/easy
wk 14 14 m (or could run 18 mile race this day)
wk 15 20-22 m progressive
wk 16 14 m
wk 17 8 m
wk 18 Marathon
Hopefully I'll be recovered for the 10k next week to get av idea of an ave hr from it!
F44, Tough luck on the flu thing. Hope it's gone soon.
VTrunner, I think Tues/Friday is a good recipe for your harder runs. Maybe start by doing one 90min with 70@80% and one 90min@70%, and then add a portion of 80% running into it as you feel fit.
I would definitely build in some races within your schedule (it's so much easier to train with a number on). You could build your cut-back weeks around the races, depending on how you feel. I would suggest rather than tapering, you cut-back following the race, by just easy running. As a rough guide I would say race once per month and cut-back weeks the same.
When you are not scheduled to do a long run, it probably is a good idea to do a medium-long, and pace it as you feel. If you feel good you may want to finish the run somewhere near MP, if you feel jaded then just make it easy (70%). Don't cast the schedule in concrete, you will need to listen to your body and ease back if necessary.
Brian - thanks and VERY good advice re upping pace and distance at the same time. I think i've maybe over egged it a bit already. 24 miles in 4 days on the spin Mon-Thurs including my first lot of "speed"
work, and the inside of my knee was feeling a tad sore this morning. I've never done 4 days on the spin before ( until recently i ran every other day) so i've pretty much done exactly what you advise NOT to do 
and will rest up for a couple of days now before the LSR on Sunday.
VT - i feel knackered reading that
... best of luck !!!
Brian,
Thanks for the good input. I'll see about getting those races in. Should I simply plan to run those races at MP or should I go all out? For the early 1/2 marathon I think I could push it but perhaps the later races (squeezed between those 20 mile efforts) might get me hurt. Alternatively, I guess I could add some miles on post race to reach the 20 mile level and call that week a 20 miler. Hmmm.
As for the 2 80% runs, I think I'll plan on one for sure per week and like you say listen to my body for the second. I've had issues with arthritis/tendonitis in the ball of my left foot. It's been quiet for months now but last week's efforts had it flaring up...so scrapped 80% run #2 this week. Yesterday off and maybe today too. It's just been so liberating to run faster again after months of 70% but I guess I'm no spring chicken anymore.
Mace, re-reading what I wrote just tired me out as well
. If my body holds up it will be interesting to see how much improvement I can get this time around. Also, do rest...hope the pain fades today.
VTrunner, I think how you approach the races may be determined by how the training is going. Sometimes you will struggle, and MP will also be a struggle, but other times you will feel good and ready to push. I must admit to doing races within marathon prep and not knowing/deciding what to do till I am actually running. You can always play it by ear. Also there's nothing to stop you making a race "progressive". This can be a bit of a cop-out, but on a 20M race, it's usually the sensible thing to do.
Good Luck with the foot.....
I do like this thought Brian, makes a lot of sense
Week 2 done... interesting week as it was all on a running machine due to travelling... I could watch the caridac drift and through each of the runs, once I'd reached about 140bpm (target max 150bpm) it hardly moved at all....
50 mins @ 144bpm - 5:27/km
50 mins @ 142bpm - 5:30/km
70 mins @ 141bpm - 5:30/km
31.27km in total.... quite pleased with that... the fact it felt completely effortless is a bonus.
MarkF,
70mins on a running machine and it was effortless!!!!!!!!
I'm so so impressed!!!!!!
I find treadmill running difficult especially at a steady pace. The only way I can do a longer run is by playing with the speed, either progressive or interval type stuff.
Interesting that your longer run came out at a slightly lower HR for the same pace. That is definite progress, especially indoors as you will be dehydrating much quicker than you would do outdoors.
Jeez, MarkF
! Anyone braving the dreadmill deserves a round of applause. In my book treadmill time is like dog years ... 10mins on there feels like a 24hr run or thereabouts 
Even more impressive with little to no cardiac drift! My HR is usually sky high in a hot & stuffy gym. Which is why I don't do gyms ...
On the injury bench at the mo ... my race (half marathon) went to pieces last Sunday as I went over my ankle the week before. Thought it'd be ok to run on it only to find out after 10k that it wasn't going to happen ... ouch. Few more days of rest and back to Hadding
M.arkF - good stuff !!
I did my second week of 80% stuff this week (Weds) - i upped it to 3miles (from 1.3miles) which was about 25 mins and felt ok other than towards the end my lower calf / achilles started to niggle a bit and after an easy run yesterday i could feel it again so have rested today. Last week i had a niggle in my calf / knee after the 80% stuff which was fine after a couple of days rest.
I hope that this is just because i've done 3 months of easy stuff and my body will get used to it but i certainly won't be upping my time at 80% until i can go 25mins without any niggles.
chickadee - hope you're not sidelined for too long
No HADD training for the last 6 weeks just the planed races + 1 unplaned race whilst on holiday.
The main race of the year ie Welsh1000m went very well and I put it down to the Hadd training. Being minutes rather than hours behind the leader. Next year!
Spent this week Hadding and I seem to be back to where I was 4 months ago HR and pace wise,never mind nose to the grind stone.
Hope all are well .
I can't really compare treadmill running with my normal running...I live in a hilly area on top of a hill so controlling my HR is impossible.... hence the occasional week on a running machine will be educational.
When you've done as much turbo training for cycling as I have in the past, an hour or so on a running machine is a walk in the park.
I would have run this week outside but it's winter here and dark outside at 6am (I'm in Sydney and really jetlagged) .... back to European summer tomorrow and Week 3.
Buit of an update from me (having recovered from flu!). I've got data from 4 runs and 1 10k race which hopefully we can look at to determine my HRmax!
The sessions are a bit sporadic (and not quite as long as planned) due to the flu but hopfully next week i'll be able to get back into some kind of routine and my runs will be a bit more ordered!
Anyway - data as follows............
Run 1 - 65mins - 137bpm - 10.04m/mile (6.48miles)
Run 2 - 50mins - 136bpm - 9.38m/mile (5.21miles)
Run 3 - 50mins - 139bpm - 10.08m/mile (5.01miles)
Run 4 - 50mins - 131bpm - 10.00m/mile (5.00miles)
And then todays 10k race which was trail, and not a good PB course! It was 2 laps of the same 5k loop which was bridal paths for the fist 2miles and then very muddy on mile 3 with one of those anti-motorbike gate things in which really slowed everyone down! Ran it in 50.05 and I would say I was more or less flat out for the distance, although I had enough left to sprint last 50mtrs so maybe there was a bit left in the tank!
Splits are as follows:
1 - 147bpm - 7.38m/mile
2 - 161bpm - 7.54m/mile
3 - 164bpm - 8.27m/mile
4 - 163bpm - 7.51m/mile
5 - 166bpm - 7.57m/mile
6 - 164bpm - 8.40m/mile
7 - 165bpm - 7.12m/mile
Total Ave = 161bpm - 8.02m/mile
What are peoples thoughts about that data? And can anyone give me an idea of my HRmax - and therefore I can work out my 70% HR to run my weekly runs at?
Cheers!
Well I've finally read through the whole thread and I'm keen.
Only problem... no HRM! I should be getting a Garmin in a week or so but currently in Switzerland so getting it over here and through customs may be tricky.
I've ben running about 15-20 miles a week albeit with a mix of slower and faster runs. Plan at the moment is just to slowly build up at a slooow pace. Tend to run most runs at 9.30 m/mile so will try and 11m/mile for the moment and hope this heavy guestimate before getting the watch is in the right area.
Plan for this week is 3 40 minute runs and a 75 minute run on Tues, Thurs, Sat and Sun. Will then add 5 minutes to the Tues, Thurs and Sun runs keeping at 11m/mile or slower. Will then keep adding 15 minutes or so each week. Hopefully get the garmin within 3 or 4 weeks and can then start doing this properly. I'm 25 so would expect a maxHR of 195 or so but will hopefully get in a maxHR test within a couple of weeks of getting the watch.
Not ideal without the HRM obviously but given my low mileage and taking things slowly, hopefully I can get going with HADD sooner rather than later without any issues.
Mark, what is your MHR?. Is the total given the averagee for the session or the max.
I am interested as I am getting fit again and doing steady running on the mill at about 5:24 pace, normally picking up for the last 2-3K. I actually think the treadmill is the ideal way to build up steady mileage at a consistent pace and also monitor your HR at the same time.
Seems a reasonable approach MOT - there won't be many trying to do HADD without a HRM.
PS Reading P&D advanced marathoning last night and it gave a really clear explanation of why running at a slower pace helps raise the LT threshold and what benefits that brings.
Yeah it's not ideal for the moment but adding a few slow miles gradually should hopefully do me some good anyway. Can't wait for that watch to arrive though.