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HADD training plan
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Thanks again!
Excellent F44. The 10k HRav will help us to derive your max, and hence your training zones. Post the stats from your runs, and especially your races.
Which 10k? Flat? Road?
This is a great thread.... I've just spent the best part of a couple of hours skimming through it.
I've been toying with the idea of going back to basics for a while and this HADD stuff sounds like the perfect solution.
I've been running on-and-off for years, done a fair few triathlons and my most recent HM a few weeks back was 1:34... training based on the FIRST program, but virtually no x-training and not even enough running sessions (even though it only calls for 3 a week)..... I just winged it really... splits were pretty even all the way.
I've just started a new program based on FIRST and tbh I'm hating it.... the running is simply not enjoyable... I think I may have squeezed all the toothpaste from the top of the tube.
My goal is to get my HM down to sub 1:25 over the next year.... my PB is 27 years old (1:28) and if I don't beat it soon I never will
At that point I may think about a marathon.
My next HM is in 16 weeks, hope to break 1:30.
So, looking at some of the posts, I conclude I should do 6 weeks at 145-150 (my max is 204), but I'm not sure whether the build up to 50 miles is feasible or necessary since I'm only looking at a HM... I think I can make it up to 4 runs a week in the first 6 weeks from my current mileage but I'll be nowhere near 50 miles.... should I continue increasing time/distance until I get to 50 miles after this or introduce some speedier sessions ?
Keep up the good motivational work on the thread.... it's much appreciated by many I'm sure.
MarkF, 50mpw is banded about quite a lot, but I prefer to talk in time. At your stage, the first aim is to get to 6-7hours of running per week. I think talking time rather than miles puts less pressure on the runner as far as pace is concerned. Generally the first phase of Hadd shouldn't concern pace or miles, it should be just about time and HR.
As you have picked up already from the thread, time on your feet can be increased because the intensity is low (~70%), but this is the area which can lead Hadders into trouble. Some feel frustrated at the pace of the lower intensity, get impatient/bored, and then up the ante. This is likely to cause injury.
Good luck with the Sub1:30, and stick around and post your progression.
Thanks for the advice Brian... it makes sense.
I've just put togther a simple plan.... to get from my current hours/week to 6-7 hours/week will take about 10 weeks whilst more-or-less sticking to the 10% rule... this leaves another 6 weeks or so before my target HM.
Will be interesting to see what happens.
Should I schedule some testing sessions in this 10 weeks as mentioned in the HADD document ? (2400m at 180bpm should be a doddle... I think I averaged that for my HM)
Welcome to Hadding M.arkF ... personally, I've never doen the 2400m Hadd test but only because it requires organisation and I've just never managed to get my act together to get to a track. However, there are lots of other ways of monitoring progress, so I don't think it matters too much.
3rd sub-LT session today (as before, 7.5M with 6.25 at sub-LT) ... not as good previously, as I ran out of steam in the last 1-2M - kept to target HR but my pace dropped. I was a bit under-fuelled yesterday and didn't compensate this morning, so not too surprised ... also lacking enough sleep after two late nights. Over all it was 7:25/m (last two were 7:18.m). But as far as the legs are concerned, it was still 6.25M at 81% maxHR.
Hi Everyone,
I have a marathon coming up this fall and wanted to get some input from this group.
A little background first. I turn 39 this summer and have a max HR of 199 (well, that’s as high as I’ve gotten it). I think I’m a fast twitch guy as I was a 400m sprinter in high school. I ran XC too, but that was never my forte (could run the 400 in 50 seconds but my 5Ks back then were high 17s/low 18s). In my 20s I hated to jog; now I’m addicted to running. 5 years ago I started to run again (maybe 10-12 miles per week) and had the usual aches/pains due to being heavier and not having run for so long (shin splints, IT band problems, knee pain, etc). Then about 2 years ago I severely sprained (destroyed) my ankle on a run. During the rehab I decided to i) lose wt and ii) be more consistent with my running and up my mileage. So I lost about 20 lbs (back to high school weight) and slowly ramped up to about 25-35 miles per week. Decided to run a marathon last fall and followed hal higdon’s advanced I plan (literally everything he said to do I did). I would say my average weekly mileage during that plan was about 35-40. I ran my race in 3:31 (HR ave was 158). Felt great and finished strong.
My current typical week looks like this:
M 8 miles easy
T 10-12 miles easy
W ILTHR (1 hr 40; 15 minute warm up/cool down and 10 at 160)
Th 8-10 miles easy
F 8 miles easy
Sat Off
Sun 14-18 miles easy
So here is where I’m currently at:
1. my pace for HR 140 is about 8:30 m/m; my pace for 145-147 is about 8:10 m/m. These averages are steady up to 2 hrs running time)
2. my pace on my last couple of ILTHR runs has been about 7:20 to 7:30 m/m at HR160 (80%) for 10 miles (not including a 1.5 mile easy warm up and cool down job). Right now I can definitely get through these runs but don’t think I could go more than another 2-3 miles. I certainly feel like I’m working when I run them…don’t feel as if I could go around again though. That said, my pace/hr is pretty steady through the whole thing. My course has a bunch of hills on it as there aren’t very many flat out/back courses here for me.
3. I raced a 5K last week and came in at 20:24. Thought I would be in the low 19s, but it was not in the cards (I had run 45 miles in the 5 days preceding the race though so was a bit fatigued). I actually felt pretty comfortable through the whole race (my HR ave was 175 (mile 1 hr ave 168; mile 2 @177; mile 3 @179) but couldn’t seem to find another gear. Last fall, 2 weeks before my marathon (after doing 4 months of hill repeats or 800 repeats) I ran a 20:15 (hr ave 171). So perhaps my time this year isn’t bad considering my comfort level and lack of any formal speed training?
Looking forward, I’m exactly 18 weeks out from my target marathon (same course as last year). I would love to run 3:15 (about 7:25 pace per mile) or under (that would qualify me for boston in 2014 when I’ll be 40). I think I have the speed to do it. My ILTHR 160 times are nearly there now but I couldn’t sustain that for 26.2 at present. My hope is that more HADD training will get me very comfortable up to say 165 or 170 (which would definitely give enough speed for my goal). So considering the base I have now, I need to figure out a good training plan for this marathon. One option would be to just keep doing what I’m doing and add a second ILTHR run per week. That would look about like this:
M 8-10 miles easy (138-143)
T ILTHR (HR 160) *start at say 6 miles and build up to 10 over time
W 10-12 easy
Continued from my previous message (software wouldn't let me upload everything)
M 8-10 miles easy (138-143)
T ILTHR (HR 160) *start at say 6 miles and build up to 10 over time
W 10-12 easy
Th 8-10 easy
F ILTHR 160 for 10 miles plus warm up/cooldown
Sat off or 6-8 easy
Sun 15-20 miles easy (later adding in some 160 for later half)
I guess I would have to be sure to do step back weeks and also figure out my long run each week (how many times do I need to do 20 mjiles and the timing of these key long runs before the race).
Alternatively, maybe I shoud replace one of the two ILTHR runs with 800 or mile repeats, hill repeats, or some other form of speed training.
I am all ears folks. I've followed your discussion for quite a while now so looking forward to hearing your comments. Many thanks in advance for your help/support!
So.... Day1 complete.... plan 60 minutes @ 150bpm..... did 64 minutes @ 146bpm
Findings....
(i) running this slow (I averaged 6:16/km) destroys your running technique... I'm a midfoot striker... this was hard to maintain
(ii) as a result my calves, especially the lower part, are shredded
(iii) my minimalist Saucony Kinvara are probably not a good shoe for this kind of training
On the positive side, there were no grannies out running to be overtaken by, and it gives me an insight into how I'll feel when I'm 70.
So, in the process of trying to get my initial post in the works, I left out a couple of important pieces of information. One thing to mention is that during my marathon training last year, I never paid attention to my HR during any of it. I just ran. Only towards the end of the training did I start to learn about lactate threshold, aerobic metabolism, and the importance of aerobic fitness. By then it was too late to even think about addressing it. So after a couple of post-marathon injuries last fall I informally began HADD training in December. Kept most of my runs at 140 to 145 (which for me would be 70 to 75% max). My initial pace was around 9 to 9:30 m/m. I was able to slowly build my mileage back up so that the past few months I have been running 50 to 60 miles per week (Brian, that equates to roughly 7-8 hrs of time on my feet)(I step back every 3<sup>rd</sup> or 4<sup>th</sup> week doing about 30-40 miles). I just started sprinkling in some ILTHR runs in the past 6 weeks or so. This is the training the has gotten me up to my current weekly schedule.
Thanks for your responses to my previous message... I would have replied sooner, but I didn't get the usual forum notification that there had been a response!
JB - to answer your question, I'm turning 26 next month, so it's not too far out. I have only taken the HR monitor out of the box for the first time a few weeks ago, so no stats from races or anything. I would be tempted to agree that my max HR is probably a bit higher than I achieved in the test. My resting HR is actually more like 52bpm (noticed this when I had the monitor on while sitting on the sofa pre-run - thought it was broken when I saw it on 52).
Since I last posted, I have persisted and on Thursday night, I managed a 6 mile run keeping my HR at average 150bpm - the only time it went above 160 was going up a hill. My average pace was 10:46m/m, I think. Similar result today, over 8 miles, average HR of 153 (although I did have a few moments when I struggled to control it).
I'm doing the Royal Parks half in October, so that's my next big race - I want to get much closer to 2 hours (even a little below if possible). I've always struggled with half marathons in the past, because I always go off too fast and then the wheels come off at 10 miles. A good portion of this is down to not having the endurance and training too fast. Keeping an eye on my HR is definitely keeping this in check.
Oh, and yes - calves are like lead when I finish a slow run!
I think the idea that this is "low intensity" training is very misleading.
For the heart & lungs it is low intensity.
For the legs it is high intensity.
My one hour run yesterday was about the same time as the week previosuly, but at 6:16/km instead of 4:30/km... I ran about 1/3 less distance but given the plodding style I reckon I must have 50% more foot-strikes/km and I'm sure the force of each of these is greater plodding rather than running... there's no floating feeling during this training, the feet are in contact with the ground a lot.
Same time. less distance, more & heavier footstrikes... it's no wonder my calves ache....if the 10% rule applies to foot-strikes I've more than broken it.
Fingers crossed I don't get a lower-leg injury.
Hi everyone. Not been on here much recently as I did 6 weeks of non-HADD HMP training. Now it's one week of easy running and then it's showtime next Sunday. I must say I preferred the slow plodding to the teeth-clenching interval and race pace specific sessions of the past couple of weeks
. I'm so not built for speed!
Good to see some fresh faces on here. Mark F: I would agree on the shoe thingie. Minimalist shoes are not what you want when you run slow. I never noticed any stride problems myself though. Perhaps because I built back from being off after illness/injury for a long time so I pretty much started from scratch in January. It was great to see the paces come down eventually though and every session had me feel fresh which is why I really enjoyed this type of base building.
I just wondered if anyone on here had a HR strategy for a half. I know Brian posted something useful about HR strategies during a full mara but is there a similar thing to be observed for the half or is it basically just stick to the training paces you are used to and hope for the best?
Thoughts:
I felt like I could have run forever!
I feel much less worn out a few hours after my run
I feel much more nimble and 'in control' when I'm running
Keeping at 140bpm is not too much of a challenge, I would say I run at 9.30-10mmile on flat and 10-11mmile up hill...... Previously I would have increased my effort to maintain the 9.30 min mile when running up hill.
I'm quietly optimistic about the whole thing!
I'm only just starting out with the hadd business so I have no idea about hr levels for a race...... I know my 10k pace but like you I'm not too sure on my half pace, but then again I'm running the gnr which is crazy busy so not one for a pb! Still, knowing what pace will be optimal will certainly help!
Vtrunner, Welcome. My advice would be to try the 2x80% runs per week. The speed can come later.
MarkF, Fingers crossed for the calves. Plenty of massage - have you got a foam roller? Best 15quid I ever spent.
Chickadee, my strategy for half is to try and average 90%, by setting off at 86-87%. Let it gradually increase to 90% at h/w, maintain till the 10m point, and then go for it last 5k.
Thanks, Brian. Sounds good.
What would your plan be for 10k?
I'm not good at 5k / 10k - too short for me!
10k can be done at faster than LT pace - so the average could come in at 90%+
Got a bit of data for you to oggle!
65min run splits (mile - ave pace - ave HR - max HR)
1 - 9.54 - 124 - 138
2 - 10.17 - 134 - 144
3 - 10.05 - 134 - 147
4 - 10.14 - 143 - 149
5 - 10.10 - 140 - 152
6 - 09.54 - 140 - 153
7 - 9.48 - 147 - 151
Totals - 6.5 Miles - 10.04 - 137 - 153
Need to concentrate on avoiding the big jumps in HR I think but quite pleased with that as a second 'experimental' HR run - i'm definitely going to increase to 4 runs a week using the plan you detailed previously Brian.
Hi Brian,
Thanks for the suggestion. How many weeks out from the race would you integrate some speed work (if any)? Somewhere in the range of 6-8 weeks out? And what would you do, just replace one ILTHR run with intervals (800s?)?
Also, I'll plan to keep getting the 2.5 to 3 hr Sunday long runs in. I just ran 20 yesterday and it took just under 3 hrs. I'm thinking that keeping to the 16-18 mile range may be wiser at this point to avoid overuse injury (even at 70% HR). Do you recommend trying to get a couple of 20 to 22 milers in before the race? Last year I did 3 of them. They were done every other week (12 mile long run on the down weeks). The last of the 3 was 3 weeks before the marathon. Should I shoot for something like this? And would you up the second half of these to 80% effort (or more depending on where my lactate threshold is)? That was my other question: when and how often to do the long runs half easy/half 80%?
I'm just trying to figure out a plan as I'm off script this time around. My hope is the ILTHR runs will get me comfy at the pace I need to run.
Thanks.
M.arkF: Speaking as a minimalist shoe (VivoBarefoot Neo) runner, try for much shorter strides to maintain the slow pace while keeping the cadence high and avoiding excessively long ground-contact time.
I keep thinking about trying HADD but my main goal at present is to get to the NDW50 in shape to cover the 50 miles...
Query: If I don't want to try the 800m fast then 400m fast to check my max HR (because I've got a bit of a glutes problem at the moment and don't want to risk aggravating it), is there another way of estimating my max HR to work out what zone I should be training in? I sometimes hit 195 and even very ocasionally >200 when just starting off on a run, but on a 10-mile slow run the day after a 25-mile LSR, I was average 130, max 145, and and I've done 8x 800m repeats with 400m recovery hitting about 160-165 during the fast sections. 44 yo, female, if that makes and difference
VTrunner, You are crossing over from Hadd training to marathon training, but I don't see a reason why not to mix.
Re speedwork. I would do 1 session per week for the last 4 weeks, as you say replacing one of the 80% runs. The sessions I find work best in mara training are 4xmile, 6x1k and 8x800m.
I aim at 5 x 20M+ runs, but if you did 3 last time I would suggest doing 4. Ideally one in a race but not racing it.
I generally make the (flat) 20s progressive ie. 5 easy, 10 moderate (~75%) and last 5 hard (~80-85%) but generally do the first one as an easy run, just to get one under my belt (time on feet run).
Going a little further into my plan, I tend to move my 80% runs up to 83% 6 weeks out (or when the 80% pace plateaus, whichever comes first). The 83% over 10M is a very good indicator of my achievable MP.
Debra, Yes there is a way of estimating your max and therefore your zones. Have you any recent race data?
Debra, the high HR readings early on in a run will probably down to bad contacts.
Brian: recent race data (mid February onward, this year):
50K 5 hrs (approx - 5.04 but Garmin said 32 not 31 miles); Marathon 3.47, 20 mile 2.47, HM 1.40, 5K 22.24, 1 mile 6.28. My only official 10K was 49 mins but that was with a piriformis problem, two weeks after the marathon so ignore it!
Spitfire 20 I maxed 173 bpm, averaged 158. I seem to average c. 140-145 bpm on most LSRs.
Debra - when you are getting the high readings do you otherwise feel like you should?
Mrs M also records very high HR at the start of runs but feels like the effort reflects the higher rate - so not likely to be a contact problem.
It would be good if you had the HRav for your Mara, HM and 5k?
Your 20M avg points to a max around 180-186.