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HADD training plan
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Interesting run for me this morning.... after feeling some soreness in my ankles after my long run Saturday, I've rested till today and decided on an easy 60 minutes.
It didn't take too long for my ankles to start hurting again, I was also struggling to keep my HR down to such an extent that I was on the point of binning the run with 25 minutes left and walking home.
After a rather loud "f**k it" I decided to speed up from my plodding 6:00/km to about 4:30/km and it was like someone had flicked a switch.... all pain gone immediately... the last 4k was a joy, that floating feeling of hardly glancing the ground each step.
I'm not sure where now.... clearly my running form collapses when I run too slowly and this exacerbates an underlying ankle weakness. 4:30/km is what FIRST suggests for my long runs... my HR will be well over 150bpm at this speed, more like 180.
Bit unsure about this HADD stuff now. It's certainly put some miles in my legs but I might have reached my limit.
hehe, Mark F... I keep swearing at my Garmin if it shows numbers that I don't like. People around me must think I'm completely bonkers. OMG - that is a crazy relationship between FIRST and HADD pace there ... you sure you got your HR max figured out correctly? I plod around 5:30-5:40/km but 4:30 would be 10 mile race pace for me. I know the Furman plan is nuts (I did it for a year in 2009) but there's no bliddy way could I do 4:30 as long run pace
. I reckon you are a much faster runner than me so obviously that plod pace will throw your running form out of the window and you end up niggly.
. I felt like I was running uphill all the way round. What a struggle. Me no like 
. 
mace: suboptimal recovery (i. e. less sleep) and high mileage will definitely affect running pace. Well, it'd better coz I had a shite sub-LT run this morning
10 miles at 8:33/mile av. pace (5:19/k). Normally I get close to 8mm on those. AND I did a 14 miler at the exact same pace last week albeit at plodding HR
Onwards and upwards - as long as we work at the right intensity we should see some training benefit.
Mark - thanks, i think i'll cut back to around 30 this week so will rest tomorrow ( instead of a 6 ) and will cut long run on Sunday to 10ish. Does that sound ok ?
chick' - sorry to hear you're in the same boat as me today, maybe it's in the air
. Mine didn't feel like a bad run, it felt very good ( i would say more comfortable than last week for the same(ish) HR effort) and i was itching to go faster. But i was surprised how quickly/easily i got to 136bpm and suspected i was slower than last week. Overall it's left me a bit confused. So, cut back and go again next week me thinks .... when hopefully I should pee all over today's run 
Chick - you get days like that. The next one will kost likely be back to normal again.
I had the same idea about a cyclo-cross bike but in fact they are not much use off road ... no suspension and dropped handle bars are not helpful. They are designed to use on grass ... but they are good for winter road cycling and I like mine for commuting as I carry a relatively big pannier pack with me and the bike feels strong. But if I had my choice again, I'd have gone for a straight road bike.
Don't be disapointed ... you slowed down for the first few miles, so obviously the pace will be slower. BUT you would have been able to continue the session for longer at sub-LT heart rate ... and that's what you're aiming for.
Slow mileage is still mileage and it will still lead to niggles and injury if you don't build up carefully and slowly. Faster mileage will be more "dangerous" though. I can't cope with km ... you're just about the only runner I see quoting paces this way ... My long run pace is 5.85/km and 4:30/km is 7:15/m right? That's pretty intense for a long run ... that's my sub-LT pace
.
I did 18M this morning...first 11M at 9:25/m for 122 bpm (68.5% maxHR) and then I gradually increased the intensity for the next 6 laps (approx 10K) until I got to my sub-LT threshold...
09:02 127 bpm
08:47 132 bpm
08:17 138 bpm
08:19 140 bpm
08:04 146 bpm
08:03 147 bpm (82.5% maxHR)
... and then jogged back the final 0.75M.
Pace at the end was much slower than a normal sub-LT session but I was starting to tie up by this stage. But, as I can't fit in a sub-LT session this week, the hard end to this long run will be the substitute. If I recover well enough, I'll have a bash at 5K race pace on Saturday (parkrun).
The reason I started this HADD plan in the first place is that I was finding the FIRST plan tiring physically, although my legs were fine....the first "long" run of the FIRST 18-week HM plan was 15k at 4:28/km... I managed it ok (I'd just done a HM fairly easily at 4:29/km) but together with the tempo and interval session, after a couple of weeks I was feeling both tired and lacking motivation.
The problem I'm having with the HADD paces is that my max HR is about 204... I've historically tried to keep my HR sub-170 on my long runs (gets over 180 on FIRST long runs), but running at sub-150 for HADD is a big difference. I can clearly see it has had benefits over the past 6 weeks, but at a physical cost... I think this is both the increse in mileage (although restricted to 10% a week) and the slower pace affecting my run-form.
I have a long-standing ankle weakness... I've twisted it so many times over the years, including a bad double twist last autumn that had me out for 6 weeks, that it's always an injury waiting to happen... changing to forefoot-strike has mitigated this a lot, slowing my running down seems to have had the opposite effect.
I think I'll continue this week with a couple more 60 minute runs, going on feel.... I'll leave the HRM at home, and see how my ankle feels before deciding what to do next.
Not surprised that FIRST plan left you feeling tired! 9M at HM pace
... and then a tempo & intervals session 
!! Ouch!
What is your "5K pace + 3 minutes" ... does that come out at a more sensible pace? This is the pace Hadd suggests if sub-70% is too slow (i.e. results in poor running form). Check your average HR at this pace ... after several weeks it should start to come down so that, eventually, this pace becomes your sub-70% pace.
I had exactly the same plan ... it didn't work out though and so I don't go off road (even the canal two-path is no pleasant). I got a Revolution Cross (Edinburgh Cycle Co-Op) ... eventually swapped the 32 knobblies for 28 slicks and just stay on tarmac now. A hydrid is a better option for on-road/off-road ... but it won't be too good for racing. The best option is a road bike for the roads and a mountain bike for trails/canal towpaths.
Dr.Dan... I reckon I'm in 19:30 5k shape at the moment... what do you mean by 5k pace + 3 minutes ?
Take my 5k pace in mins/mile and add 3 to it ? Or take my 5k time and add 3 to it ?
5k pace in mins/mile and add 3 to it ... so 6:16+3 ... about 9:15/m, or 5:45/km in your language. That might feel a bit more comfortable than 9:40/m or 6/Km you're doing at the moment.
Dr. Dan... Thanks... I have managed 5:17/km at 148bpm over 60 minutes on the flat a few weeks back... this felt reasonable speed-wise... maybe I should just forget the HR and try my long run at about 5:20 - 5:30/km and see how I go.... might be an idea to jump into the sub-LT sessions now as well instead of plodding away during the week.... these should be well under 5:00/km.
Sounds like that may work for you
... run by pace but wear the HRM on the 5:20 - 5:30/km runs and record the avHR, so that you can monitor improvement.
Hi all, I've not been running long at all (about 4 months), after years of smoking
Anyway, quit smoking about 6 months ago so decided to get fit instead! I have only done 1 race (Great North 10k) which I managed to get round in 58.42. I think it worked out about 9.20m/mile. Nowhere near as good as you all but it's a start!
I've spent quite a few hours reading the forums and thought that HR training could help me improve.
I bought a HR monitor and set out for my 1st run. It was very hard to go so slow, I ended up doing 5 miles in about 11.25m/mile. The other worrying thing was that my HR was between 150-160 bpm (up to 80%). It was about 20 degrees though.
This run/walk was very easy and I could have easily done it all again.
Do you think my HR bpm / % is correct or have I entered the wrong numbers? I'm 28yr old
Please help!!
Dr.Dan - i see what you're saying but 23 seconds per mile slower seems too much ? And my drift towards the end ( between laps 4-5 ) was only 6 seconds last week but 12 seconds this week .... i'm going to rest a bit more this week and have another crack next week, hopefully refreshed with the extra day off and less mileage and with a better nights kip the night before
. I'll report back next Weds/Thurs.
F1nch - i gave up the smokes about 8 years ago and can vividly remember going running for the first time in 20 years about 2 months after, having piled on the pounds. After half a mile my lungs were close to collapse. Nowadays i do most of my running slower than i did then but i'm much much fitter .....
Have you done a max test ? If not, i'd recommend you do so. If you have done one and are confident in your result, it looks to me like you need to drop to maybe 12m/m to get to 70-75% which would fit in roughly with your 10k time ( ie 9.20m/m @ 10k ~ 9.00m/m for 5k so your easy pace is around 5k pace + 3m/m = 12m/m )
A few weeks/ a month at that pace should see your pace improve for the same HR. I believe the recommendation for HADD is that you can run at 75% initially but reduce to 70% as pace improves.
Good Luck
Thanks for the reply Mace, I want to get out tonight and do a max test but I'm suffering from some nasty blisters on the side of both my big toes! Wondering if my Adidias Supernovas are too narrow?
Hi Folks,
My last post for a while. Based on my last visit to the sports medicine group and a flare up of the injury after some yard work, I'm out of the game for what looks to be months. The time frame seems to be 4-6 months of doing basically nothing (no heavy weights, no running or any other exercise that will strain the injury (which is basically anything you do). ANd most of the time, this rest period (with some core strengthening PT) doesn't resolve things...surgery is typically required. Tempts me to want to just get the repair but that would be a very short sited view. Will take the conservative (albiet long) road. Anyway, good luck to all as you train for fall races.
My next pain free run will be slow, feel like shit, but will be golden all the same.
VTrunner
VT - sorry to hear that, i hope you recover well and it doesn't take too long.
From memory, was it you who ended up with this after a 20m run ? Or was that another injury ? Or another person even
....
VTrunner, Gutted for you. All the best for the rehab.
VT runner
. My heart goes out to you. Hope you recover well and come back stronger.
. Doing a max. test on your own is extremely hard. I wonder if there was a race in the near future that you could do? Like a 5 or 10k. Much easier to get the old pump going in a race environment. Expect to feel 
. Good luck!
welcome F1nch. Well done for kicking the nasty smoking habit. I did when I was about your age and have never looked back. It took a long time to get reasonably fit though. Managing a sub 60 10k is great and shows you have natural talent. And of course you have youth on your side
Easy week last week ending up with 10m yesterday morning, really squeezed the toothpaste @ HRav 66%
Thanks for the good wishes everyone. Picked me up just now to read them. Chickadeee...no doubt I'll be back eventually...and hopefully stronger than before. One good outcome already is that a chronically irritated joint in my foot is now pain free for the first time in 18 months. Pehaps all my parts will be healed and 100% when I begin again.
Mace, I did stress my foot after a recent 20 miler, but that subsided quickly. The adominal problem that I'm now dealing with occured on an 80% run. Just felt a slight twinge in the middle of that run...nothing to note really...was later that night when all hell broke loose. I think I got hurt by ramping up to the 80% runs too quickly. I should probably have done a single run each week for a few months...but after about a month I started doing them 2X per week. Although thinking back on it I felt strong and was improving each run. My PT said when we are setting PRs and feel super fit we are about 1 wk away from a major injury. I think I probably need a coach (to tell me when to ease off the gas
). Oh well....
Later all.
VT - that's very useful info and has made me stop and think about where i could be heading.
I've been slowing increasing mileage to 40 per week and eased off last week with the intention of increasing again over the next month leading up to my Half at end of September. But , like i say, your post has made me think and i'm going to stay at around 40 and get used to it. I was also toying with the idea of adding another sub-LT session ; again, i'll knock that on the head for now and stick to 1 a week.
So thanks and good luck to you.
Mace, in response to your thoughts, I am definitely going to move slower next time. Last October I ran my marathon, then developed a pretty good case of peroneal tendonitis shortly after (ran too hard, too soon)...then sprained my ankle badly...so other than doing some elliptical in late November/early december, I started running from scratch again in late december. My first two weeks were about 15-20 miles per week...then I slowly built up to doing 24 miles (wk3), ~30-40 (wks 4-17), ~40-50 (18-24) , 50-60 (25-29), 60-70 (30-35), then injury. I started the 80% runs in the last 13 weeks (all rest of my runs were 75% or less...most closer to 70). I only started doubling the 80% runs in the last 3 weeks. So it could be that the combo of running 60+ miles in a week, with two being 80%, that did me (perhaps upping the mileage and intensity all at once was too much). Thanks for asking though as I hadn't formally looked at my progression. FWIW, last year i usually ran somewhere around 40 miles per week preparing for the marathon. Before that, more like 25-30. So In less than two years I went from say 30 mile weeks to mid60s. While I felt awesome before I got hurt, i now think I was really asking for it. I read you should only add to your weekly mileage by say 10 miles per year.
Dr. Dan...am desperate to find that one aerobic activity I can do without pain. Before my flare up I was able to use a sit down (legs out in front) stationary bike that didn't seem to exacerbate things. Might try that again when this acute pain has calmed again.
I got a bit ahead of myself recently and it wasn't until Brian made a comment about not adding miles and quality at the same time that I stepped back and looked at my training and saw straight away why I was probably getting a few twinges in my knee/ calf.
Interesting comment about 10 miles a year as well. I was running max 15 a week up to march pre HADD. So at 40 a week that suggests I should hold for a good few months ?
I think maybe it's easy to get carried away as a novice such as myself when improvements come relatively quickly. Like you say, start to feel like superman !! Important to remember that JOE in the hadd document was an elite athlete so him being told by John HADD Walsh to get to 50 miles a week ASAP would have been something well within his ability and the higher mileage thereafter would be needed for him to improve on his already impressive mara pb of 2.30 ish?
Again, thanks VT
Much Much Much happier with this week's sub-LT run. 9.5m (80 mins) with just under 8 @ sub-LT ( 65 mins )
Lap Miles Time Pace HR % Last wk Wk before
1 1.31 11:02 8:19 135 77 8.41 136 8:03 139
2 1.31 10:42 8:04 137 78 8:37 138 8:09 140
3 1.31 10:44 8:13 140 80 8:37 139 8:18 141
4 1.31 10:49 8:14 140 80 8:39 140 8:31 141
5 1.31 10:53 8:18 141 81 8:51 140 8:37 141
6 1.31 10:59 8:21 141 81 8:53 140 n/a
7.86 65:09 8:17 139 80 8:44 139 8:21 140
A fair improvement over last week ( crap nights sleep and due an easier week ? ) which i'll write off as a bad run and better than the week before also. Much tighter than that week, slightly quicker ave pace, slightly less ave effort and an extra 1.3m so held the pace for longer.
I have a Half Marathon at the end of September.
No race experience whatsover so the session above is all i have to go on. Over the last 2/3 months i've done 14m once, 13m a couple of times and probably 6 runs between 10-12.
If i was running it this weekend, how should i go about it bearing in mind i'd want to give it a decent effort.
Hi mace, glad your sub-lt run went well.
Given your experience (or lack of) in racing, I would suggest a progressive nature to the HM. This will take the pressure off maintaining a goal pace, and target time. And it makes the whole idea of "racing" 13miles easier to handle.
I suggest splitting it into bite-size chunks of 4M-4M-5M and run them a la:
4M easy (75-80%)
4M allowing the HR to rise to 85%
5M as you feel. This will probably equate to your true potential HM pace, and the HR should be around 90%
This approach guards against failure, or a crash-and-burn as some runners refer to it. It significantly decreases the chance of punishing yourself and having to slow in the latter stages. This type of race also feels good because you end up passing runners rather than being passed. Once you benchmark a run with this approach, it gives confidence and much more idea as to your true race potential.
.
Brian - sounds good to me and i'll give that a go. I guess the hardest part of executing it will be to not get too carried away at the start ....