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RicF, re the Dead Zone:
"To the uninitiated, the Dead Zone is that area where the training (running) is too fast for building or recovery but not fast enough to trigger an adaptive response"
I thought aerobic development occured all the way up to marathon pace? So if I am running anything between a slow jog and MP I am growing those mitochondria etc. Not the case?
I am no scientist but I undersood it from Hadd that it was good to train at a range of aerobic paces.
Ah shucks, thanks Ric
The last time i was referred to as a genius was ... erm ..... that's enough of that then .
HADD sub-LT run is an MP run. Beneath your lactate threshold (which is, in theory, around 10M pace) And before you do those sort of runs build your mileage at an easy ( or even recovery ) HR until you can run for an hour with minimal HR drift. Then you start working on the higher end aerobic stuff ( sub-LT/MP ) until you minimize the drift.
I'm not saying HADD has no value. Just to make you aware that no one has sussed this business 100%.
There's room for innovation and experiment. Keep an open mind.
Study the subject for getting on for thirty years and you'll see it.
If you are aware that many training methods were made famous because one athlete broke a world record doing them you'll think the method must be great. However, if you are also aware that the same athlete had a career of no more than three years and finished permanently injured, you'll develop another view.
I'm faster now at 54 than I was at 27. So what went wrong?
🙂
perhaps you weren't doing 80mile weeks at 27 eh Ric
"Just to make you aware that no one has sussed this business 100%."
I hear you RicF. I have been running since last June and I need to hang my hat on something, training approach-wise, and some bits from Hadd are just the hat-stand I need. Whether I understood them right or not, they rang true for me when I put them into practice and I enjoy them. I doubt I will ever be an adherent of one particular approach but I hope to piece various ideas together over time into my own patchwork duvet cover of running lore. It's a grubby polyester sleeping bag at the moment with quite a few holes in it. But it's doing the trick.
CharlieChris: I see you've also picked up Hadd's love of analogies
. Keep squeezing that toothpaste tube!
Hmm, you go away for a few days and then the whole bloody thread morphs into the Middle Ground. What happened to the good old days of mainly pisstaking and a little bit of running?
I don't know Skinny.
I recommend Ric sticks around, as I reckon he could be an exceptional mentor for you, for this lead up to the marathon, and potentially give you some gems from his 30 years of experience.
Well I had a reasonably successful evening. Went to see a lady from my club who does sports injury. She saw me complaining about my nerve impingement. All gratis of course.
Anyway....she spotted my still swollen ankle from Edinburgh and thinks there's a chance I might have fractured it. She then looked at my hand from my fall and thinks I may have fractured that just above wrist. We then moved to lower legs. She thinks I should see a podiatrist as I have very oddly angled feet which must be affecting my running style and so leading to lower leg niggles.
Other than that I'm in great shape.
Are you running with these fractures!?.
It's only suspected at this stage, Stevie!!
My ankle doesn't hurt or ache at all so would be surprised if issue. Re the wrist, I broke it in 99 and continued playing footy and doing taekwondo so don't running is an issue.
You must be one of very few runners who weren't substantially quicker in the 80s.
On an unrelated note I would like to encourage the ladythreadsters to read this . Looks like if you are worried about it you have 3 options: get fatter, do less exercise, or go on the pill.
I'm also quicker now than I was in the 80's.
Lou - what TRXing do you do? I've mainly been doing core stuff along with some single leg squats but getting a bit bored of them so would like to mix it up a bit. I've had a look at some stuff on line but some of them look ridiculous.
DT - blimey! Are you getting some X-rays arranged?
Has anyone else got Calvin Harris's, "Acceptable in the Eighties" stuck in their head now?
DT - I think you probs ought to get checked over!
Marrows - that's a bit of a depressing read. Think mine is breastfeeding related though but not been up to this level of mileage before so I wouldn't know. Although my body fat % is far from low so I'm probably ok. I guess more of a worry if you might be planning children one day? But osteoporosis no fun for anyone. Although I thought weight bearing exercise was meant to help stave off osteoporosis?
Well I binned the VO2 max stuff this week on the grounds of recovery from Sunday's half. Just did an easy 9 miles instead last night with some strides. Despite really not fancying it beforehand due to it being late and me being tired it was a great run. Feeling strong. Then this morning I met up with another local Mum (who is a 42 minute 10k'er) and we did a buggy run together so 7 more miles in the bag. Flew by having someone to chat to. Have missed running with other people, should make more of an effort to get along to club nights.
I concur...everyone that I have spoken to who ran in the 80's could run a 32 minute 10k but were finishing last in races such was the quality depth!
I am going to get my wrist checked out as that is sorer now than it was 9 days ago. I have a couple of days off next week so will turn up at the minor injuries unit. I just really can't face the prospect of having a plaster cast on. If nothing else, they end up stinking.
Lou/Mcf- I heard this morning that parkrun is coming to Stratford. They have found a route and set up a core team and just looking for a few other names to get them started with marshalling etc. Might mke for an easier run than the Leamington route.
Ooooh...do you know where the route might be, DT? We have plans to try out the Rother Valley parkrun next time we're visiting family for the weekend as a pre-VLM sharpener. It's pretty flat around the lake.
Good news re Stratford parkrun. Also they have just done the inaugural one at Evesham. apparently it is fast and flat but some of it is on grass. I plan on trying it soon.
This is what i read on facebook this am-
Call for help folks - A Stratford pr core team has identified a route and has the finance sorted to start a new event. However, they need to identify local people that can help out - this could take the form of setting up/marshaling or being more involved in the core team, if you are interested could you INBOX me please and i can pass on the contact details. Its in all of our interest to help this event get up and runni
Excessive exercise is a rather subjective concept. The list of high risk sports is interesting though; quite a variety with no obvious characteristic factor.
DT - Depends which park they use. Welcombe Hills Park is far from flat. I think I'll nip over to Cov Memorial Park in the near future and have a go at that one.
Charlie - I find the 'dead zone' concept quite hard to understand. It's often explained as if there is no benefit to be gained from running in this zone, which I find hard to believe. I think the point is that there is no greater benefit than if the run was slower and the disadvantage is that it results in increased fatigue.
A minor point that I've never managed to comprehend is whether this applies to distance or time. One apparent advantage of running faster is that it takes less time to cover the same distance. So does a 1 hour run which I cover eight miles have no greater training affect then a 1 hour run covering only 7 miles?
Tommy - TRX exercises include: press-ups, row, bicep curl, mountain climber & squat-thrust, back extension with arms overhead and also to the side, one and two handed trunk rotation, single leg squats with raised leg in front and behind, hamstring curl.
I think that's all
Lou - I agree with you. There is a place for all intensities of running within a programme when carefully considered and planned. The important point is knowing the purpose of every run before you set out and do it. With regards your other point I think you would get more benefit from covering more miles. The question is whether the benefit is worth the additional fatigue.
McF - no comment on my own long-term plans but future fertility is one thing they don't seem to be concerned about! Lou - the list looks like sports where you train a lot or need to be light, so to me the surprise one is basketball.
Re the 'dead zone', what's the pace where you start using more glycogen and less fat? If you are trying to stress yourself by running out of glycogen, then it matters.
Mr fracture clinic says no running for 6 weeks so no London marathon. Bit puzzled why so different to previous (probable) stress fracture which was a 2 week job. Ah well.. it's probably good news for some other little projects, like writing up my thesis
Quite true, if learning about training methods was a voyage of discovery, I spent a fair bit of the early years being seasick
🙂
Sorry to hear that marrows - and about the writing up. I remember that bit. Will you be allowed to run in time for Edinburgh?
PS: Ric, SG - when I was 27 I did nothing but easy running. That and avoiding writing up my thesis.
I was a new runner (26 years old) in the days when most runners had come through the club system as kids. Their arrogance wasn't the half of it. I endured years of patronising comments from guys who could do things like break 15 minutes for 5000m, like "that's good for you". If I broke 18 minutes.
Oddly enough the runners who never did this were the full blown internationals I seemed to end up training with. I had too much respect for them to try pushing the pace along during a steady run.
My steady was their recovery pace. So in fact my lack of ability fitted their plans. That, and my knowledge of very long off road routes, trail running in fact.
Not many runners left from those days. Of my own age group I doubt if three still run from over 50 runners who could run faster than I could. All injured out of it, or slowed down so much they don't even register.
Real tortoise and hare stuff.
🙂
Marrows - Really sorry to hear that. At least you have a definite time frame for recovery and useful things to fill your time with!
Ric - Interesting point on longevity. What do you think the key is to running well long term? I'm still (just about) in my 20's and would like to think I can still be running well in 20 years time. I can think of a few examples of people who have hammered the miles and burned out after 10 years or so.
Sorry to hear that marrows. Welcome to the defer club.
That looks like a quote straight out of Daniels...
Lou - thanks, I've done a few of them. One of the ones I don't get is the hamstring curl, although I don't think I'm doing it right. I've also done the fly one and the press up plus bringing your knees up to your chest.
Easy 5 miles at dinner, going for a swim this evening.
That's crap, Marrows
. Was it you that had a back up Abingdon place just in case?
I didn't really start running until my last 20's and have had several extended periods off for having babies. So hoping that means my legs are actually much younger in running years than they actually are. There's a woman in my club, still running strongly in her late 50's and she wins so many age group prizes. Don't think she ran her first marathon until her 50's though.
I'm going to delurk into this thread and make a comment that will probably be regarded as flamebait.
Why does running necessarily have to have a purpose in the strict sense? I mean, I understand that if you're in a rut and want to get quicker over specific distances then obviously you have to try new things. Isn't it all kind of subjective/dependent on the level you see yourself running in short, mid and long term?
Having recently returned to running, I don't have any real plans right now but to relieve stress and build an aerobic base, the only real "purpose" my runs have had is to be run so I can still converse (i.e; EASY) and for a set amount of time. My goals have been to increase mileage by staying injury free and requiring very few rest days which so far I have achieved BUT, I'm not going to sacrifice my health just to meet some mandatory target I have set for myself e.g; if my leg is a bit sore I'm not going to go out and run just to make sure my mileage is equal or higher than the previous week.
I have noticed already improvement in pace and the effort my heart has to make to stay at that pace. Sub 170 bpm pace has improved dramatically already to the point where I have taken at least half a minute from that pace since 2/3 weeks ago but these runs I've been doing would be classified, according to some posters here as "garbage" or "junk" miles. In my opinion there's no such thing.
Today for example I wasn't running at a pace that is conducive to improving V02 max or lactate threshold nor was I running for long enough for it to promote mitochondrial growth (since they say 90+ minutes duration for that) but what I did notice was a very bad habit, since the running was leisurely enough for me to focus on specific form aspects such as cadence, alignment etc. The bad habit in question was that I tilt my head up when I run for some bizarre reason, I focused on fixing this and lowered my head looking straight forward and all of a sudden, easy felt even easier.
Now I don't doubt I will keep lifting my head when running like I'm running chasing my chin but now I know at least, the bad habit is there. You can't fix something if you don't know it's broken.
Now currently, I have no race goals but when that changes I will probably start mixing in some 400/800 possibly up to mile intervals but I'd like to think I will keep the majority of running as I am doing it now, it might be garbage miles but at least it makes me feel happy and relaxed. There is definitely a science to running efficiently and I do believe it is a skill that isn't inherent and needs to be learned but unless you're getting paid to do it; why fret so much? Just get out and run because it's good for the soul I see too many people when I'm out running who look miserable, why bother doing something that makes you miserable I just don't understand.
But I think becoming obsessive about making every run "purposeful" is only conducive to being a bit miserable it's just more pressure where there is no need for it; we live in a western society where for most of us running isn't a livelihood but a way of leisure it's the same as painting a picture. If I sat there every time I picked up a paintbrush and set to myself "right this needs to have a purpose, I need to improve from this or it will be pointless." I don't think I would want to paint anymore but if I sat there just loving the act of doing it there is a possibility I might produce a masterpiece.
It's going to sound morbid but in my opinion most of these pressures we put on ourselves in every facet of life boils down to a fear of death. "I only have x amount of time to do this until...etc." we can't (as far as I'm aware) take anything with us but I like to take a humble pleasure in borrowing this relatively minute amount of time I've been given to spend