P + D training for VLM 2013

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Comments

  • literatinliteratin ✭✭✭

    Bloody hell, a 49 minute PB? I'd forgotten what everyone's previous PBs were. That's incredible. Though I do agree you looked like you were on target. Wait and see how well you recover, and then it might be easier to see what went wrong.

    I think we've all been waiting for this round of marathons to be over to reflect on what worked and what didn't with the P&D training.

  • brer rabbitbrer rabbit ✭✭✭

    Teknik..I was indeed in a Macmillan vest. Did we speak buddy? How did it go?

    AgentGinger..onwards and upwards..tough day today roasty, toasty image

  • TeknikTeknik ✭✭✭

    AG well done.  It was the heat, that's it. 

    Brer I was with the pack until about mile 9, then realised a 3:29 wasn't on. Kind of gave up, but lost sight in my right eye and decided the St John's ambulance was a better way home at mile 12.   Heat stroke.  You ran a great race, what with the hot sun and the 20+ bunch of lumbering 6 foot men around you.  image

  • ShazmoShazmo ✭✭✭
    Oh bad luck Ginger. Maybe yor extended taper didnt help. Still, 4.19 is a very respectable time in that heat and you should be proud of the fact you got a massive PB.
  • TenjisoTenjiso ✭✭✭

    AG - a 49 minute PB? Yeah, I'd say that's an "achievement of sorts". Most of the runners would have killed to get an achievement of that sort! Congratulations!!! image

    Did you look at what the improved Riegel calculator at Fetch predicted for you marathon time, based on your half marathon? You might find you were closer than you think to a realistic goal. Races of 10k and 5k are less than ideal for predicting marathon race times (they haven't worked for me based on any formula I've come across). 

    I guess it's time for group autopsy? image

    It's a good point to raise, that an ommission from the plan seems to be a race of a decent distance (i.e. half marathon) to test progress in the earlier stages. Most of us went through a process of agonising how to restructure the plan in order to do a mini-taper for a half marathon race, then continue the plan afterwards having done that race. There are hints how to do this in the book, such as the table showing when to do the last VO2 or LT run before a race, but no firm examples. We muddled through with group support, which is where this thread has been brilliant.

  • brer rabbitbrer rabbit ✭✭✭

    Bloody hell Teknik, are you ok today? That sounds frightening buddy. It seems there were a few casualties resulting from the heat though. Take careimage

  • stutyrstutyr ✭✭✭

    AG, well done.  It does sound like the heat got to you, so I'm sure you could go faster in cooler conditions (or an Autumn marathon once you've got used to the heat image)

    BR, that was a fantastic result.

    Teknik, I hope you recover quickly that must have been scary when the vision went!?!

     

  • TeknikTeknik ✭✭✭

    Thanks guys, I think the heat and effort triggered a migraine.  All ok this morning.

  • chickstachicksta ✭✭✭

    AG: sorry it didn't quite go to plan. Was stalking you too and got a bit concerned, especially because of that strange virus you had the other day. Glad you got around in one piece AND bagged 49 min PB image. Always a tough one to run a marathon on the hottest day of the year so far when the body had little to no chance of adapting due to the friggin' long winter. I had a similar experience in one race where I basically hobbled from 15 miles onwards due to cramp. I had really lost the will to live by then and nearly dropped out when a spectator in a wheelchair cheered me on and shouted "c'mon, don't give up, you can do it". Most humbling experience of my life image. That guy had me in tears so I pulled myself together and stuck it out despite being 20 mins outside my target.

    BR
    : another one that thought you was a bloke image. That's a brilliant time!! Well done you imageimage

    Tek: jeepers! That sounds freaky image. Hope your eyesight is back to normal now.

  • TenjisoTenjiso ✭✭✭

    Teknik - glad you're okay today! Might be worth a follow-up with your GP just to be on the safe side? Have you had similar symptoms before? It doesn't sound like something you should be vague about for future races. 

  • 15West15West ✭✭✭

    Hmmm...just lost my previous message...anyway, in brief...well done on the PB AG...sorry you didn't reach your goal but was a tough day in MK with that heat. Keep at it, work on the endurance, it will come.

    Bit of running for me this weekend. 10miles on sunday, and a local 6k fun run yeaterday with the daughter. She ran the whole way and really enjoyed it....good it was.

    When is this thread being put to bed then?

  • AG that is a great run to knock 49 mins off for a PB and on a definitely unfriendly day for marathon runners.  The sub 4 will come soon.

  • TenjisoTenjiso ✭✭✭

    AG - I'm impressed that you did the 11K between 21K and 32K in only nine minutes! That has to be a world record!  Tell the truth now.... you caught a bus didn't you? 

    (I found out because someone else mentioned their wierd time for the same leg - I don't really think you caught a bus. image)

  • AG - well done mate, sounds like a tough run and I can empathise with the body just not playing ball on the day - you did your best and a cracking PB was had. You had been ill the week before, that will always come back to haunt you I find, that will probably be the main reason your body didn't respond on the day (I remember running Tatton Half Marathon after being ill for a week and vowed never to do that again). Re competing with other friends... I learned to knock that in the head a good while ago, we really only can compete with ourselves.  

    brer - cracking race!  Well done to you.  I also thought you were male! 

    Tecknik - that sounds awful.  So sorry you ended up pulling out, what a nightmare. Hope you are ok now? 

  • MennaniaMennania ✭✭✭

    Ag - Was not a day for running marathons, a 49 min pb is like hens teeth. imageI went for a 10k run and was thinking of you guys.

    Brer - Cracking run. 3.30 is yours under different conditionsimage

    Tecknik - take it easy and recover fully buddy.

    This has been a cracking thread and it has fully done its job -I am  moving over to HeOws Autumn one so hopefully will see you all in there. image

     

     

  • AgentGingerAgentGinger ✭✭✭

    Thanks guys, I am so tempted to sign up for an autumn marathon as I feel like i've got unfinished business, I do feel a bit robbed from yesterday. Anyway, I reckon after a couple of days to think about it i'll stick with my initial plan of racing more 5 and 10ks to get speed up, before tackling another marathon next spring. If i can knock some reasonable chunk of time off my shorter distances I would then be aiming for a quicker marathon and at least if I fade hard again, I would fade below 4 hours.

    Anyway, thanks for all your help and input over the last few months on this thread, I might occassionally dip into the Autumn marathon thread to say hi and see how you're all getting on. Good luck to those of you doing autumn mara's image

  • AG - the experts say that you can slow by up to 20 secs/mile in warmer weather so if you factor that in you probably finished roughly where you might expect.  As others have said you were also under par during the week so I think you've done incredibly well and a 49 min PB is amazing. You've also improved at your other distances which means the times are on the way down. If you felt inclined to do an autumn marathon you would probably have more success as the weather will be more what you are used to... in saying that, my autumn marathon last year there was snow. image

    Ten - I totally agree about the vagueness regarding HM races and the how to do it detail.  I suspect that this is because they suggest you don't need to do any during training and kind of think you'll only do the target race and some tune up tempo races (for want of a better description) I didn't do any which made life a bit easier, however, it would have been useful to have a race on which to gauge pace and I'm itching to see whether I've got faster especially as everyone else was smashing their times in training.

    Personally the whole plan has been a revelation to me.  I've never used HR monitoring for training and for the first time I've seen pace improvements during the plan by basing my runs on HR. I also think that the MLR has been really useful in improving endurance as that was probably the biggest difference between this plan and the ones I've used in the past.

    Like a few of you, I've been so impressed I've bought the other book and plan to use it over the summer for shorter stuff.

  • TenjisoTenjiso ✭✭✭
    Fiona J wrote (see)

    Ten - I totally agree about the vagueness regarding HM races and the how to do it detail.  I suspect that this is because they suggest you don't need to do any during training..... I didn't do any which made life a bit easier....

    Can't argue with your results, so you are underlining the point that P&D make about not needing to do such a race.  Food for thought.

    I've already prepared most of my 10k plan from the other P&D book image

     

  • Ten - well I suppose I have confirmed their point. However, I may have gone out faster at VLM if I thought I was capable of more as confirmed by a better HM if you see what I mean.  I only stuck at the faster pace the second time cos I expected to have to walk much sooner and didn't really care about the time. On a positive note with that regard - I was 24th senior female image as it seems they have used 40 + for vets image and 40th female overall which I am terribly pleased with.

    I have just got the book and have decided on a HM race to target so just working backwards through the plan at the mo. I always wondered how you figured out what length of intervals to do and now I know.

    I'm also having a look at running clubs again.

  • brer rabbitbrer rabbit ✭✭✭

    Hey folks, thank you so much for your very positive comments-you are a very friendly bunch on here. I'm usually to be found on Snowdonia forum but I will now add the P and D Autumn marathon forum to my 'must be visited' forum. Cheers all xximage

    ps I don't know why you all thought I was a chappie thoughimage

  • literatinliteratin ✭✭✭

    Because it's a boy's name!!!

    I guess you could always change it to Sis Rabbit?

  • Also-ranAlso-ran ✭✭✭

    AG - I'm stalking you round the threads image. The heat was a really big factor on the day, as was the course. After coming off the dual carriageways my quads seemed to take a real battering, Whether this was the little ups and down going through the underpasses and over humpback bridges, or wheter is was the surface of the redways and the tight bends  I'm not sure. Whatever it was, it wasn't a day for hitting those 'A' targets, and 49mins is brilliant. It should give you lots of confidence for next spring to make the next breakthrough. Pat on the back to Messrs P&D as well

  • Also-ranAlso-ran ✭✭✭

    AG - I'm stalking you round the threads image. The heat was a really big factor on the day, as was the course. After coming off the dual carriageways my quads seemed to take a real battering, Whether this was the little ups and down going through the underpasses and over humpback bridges, or wheter is was the surface of the redways and the tight bends  I'm not sure. Whatever it was, it wasn't a day for hitting those 'A' targets, and 49mins is brilliant. It should give you lots of confidence for next spring to make the next breakthrough. Pat on the back to Messrs P&D as well

    Well done Brer - we knew you can't go wrong by carb loading on extra rice pudding image

  • TenjisoTenjiso ✭✭✭
    Also-ran wrote (see)

    After coming off the dual carriageways my quads seemed to take a real battering, 

    When I ran MK last year I couldn't believe how soon my quads began to ache after I had been training on hills for my long runs!  I did wonder if this was why P&D strongly recommend performing the long runs over similar terrain to the intended marathon. Perhaps I wasn't prepared for a flatter marathon at the time? 

  • AgentGingerAgentGinger ✭✭✭

    on the subject of training for specific terrain, is there much disadvantage in training on hills? Surely you'd be better prepared if your race was flatter than expected, than the other way around, i.e. trained on flat and race was hillier than expected.

  • literatinliteratin ✭✭✭

    I think hills are more effort, so you might have more endurance, but monotonous flat surfaces put different pressures on your muscles because of the repetitive nature of the impact. Or something. There's probably a happy medium.

    Most of my training is flat because of where I live, but I do try to stick the occasional hill in for variety. But I did avoid my club's hilly runs for my LSRs, because they were across country and on hilly, uneven terrain, and I didn't think all the stopping and starting and changes in pace were going to be that helpful in training me to run on flat roads for 3+ hours without stopping.

  • TenjisoTenjiso ✭✭✭

    I followed their advice and ran much flatter LSR's with a couple of hills to mimic my race. My quads certainly didn't feel like they were cramping as they had done the previous year. However, I also did a lot better training in general, so it may not necessarily be direct cause and effect.

    I will do the same for VLM training next year.

  • I think hills will give more leg strength and are ideal for everyday training, but I think they play so much havoc with paces and heart rates that trying to keep to prescribed ones as  in the P & D programmes is very difficult and probably counterproductive.

    I still did quite a bit of hills on long runs but mainly because of the routes I used having some good gradients on them anyway, though it wasn't hill training per se

  • TenjisoTenjiso ✭✭✭

    Another departure from the pure P&D plan which I (and I think most of us) made was to up my longest run to 22m. I would also consider increasing the number of 20m+ runs in a future schedule. Personally, I felt that a 22m run gave me greater confidence that I could perform well on race day. I did this seven weeks out from the marathon, due to the way it fell in my plan, though I would prefer five weeks out in my next schedule (or both 7 and 5 weeks out image).

    Today I ran another 7m GA by heart rate, and again I averaged a faster pace than is required in the 3:45 marathon training range. 

  • Also-ranAlso-ran ✭✭✭

    I'm not great at following plans, in face I am crap with running to a plan, but I have found the P&D book invaluable for marathons. I treat the first part of the book as my bible (commiting a few sins along the way). One of the departures is hill reps sessions which I do for 8 to 10 sessions as part of strengthening, then drop in the last 3 weeks prior to a 2 week taper, exchanging them for VO2 jobbies

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