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BK Canter: Yeah did a 21 miler out and back along the canal on a sunny / windy / rainy / haily morning in Leeds yesterday, that took in the sites of Esholt waterworks, Apperly Bridge kennels, Rodley tea rooms and Kirkstall waste processing plant.
. Went with my slower charity partner so we both deliberately set out at a steady 08:30 - 09:00 min mile pace for the first 13, where my plan was to run at MP for 5 miles near the end. Then as he started to flag after 13, I asked him if he didn't mind if I pushed on at MP. He gasped / spluttered 'go for it'. So I did and got the following splits for miles 14 - 18. 7:58, 7:40, 7:54, 7:47, 8:00. Then I eased down for the last 2 .
21 miles done in 3 hrs bang on. The whole thing felt really comfortable and controlled, and has done me a massive confidence booster ahead of the Taper down to London.
Carl
Sounds like you to had a fantastic last LSR before your taper. Very consistent splits there mate. Should see you comfortably in the 3:30 - 3:45 zone with that if you can replicate on the big day.
Ali: Your training and fitness levels seem solid to me from what you write on the forum, thus have 2 weeks or so off, do nothing except maybe some strength work at the gym. Certainly no running though.
Nell: Thanks I am a strong soul. lol. Think I need a break from footy anyway after that drubbing from the chavs. Typical though as ive now been offered a semi-final ticket for Wembley which is what date now? Oh yeah the day before London Marathon. A trip to Wembley and staying off the beers. Jeez thats going to be hard.
Ali – sorry to hear about your troubles. It does sound like that Plantar Fascilitis – are your shoes giving you the right support? I think its an injury that responds quite well and quickly to treatment so you should be back out there before long.
Sean – that’s a great final LSR from you, and proves you can do the time over that distance, so augurs well for the final few weeks.
Big G – lots of admiration for your organising abilities, and for the work you are doing in a voluntary capacity or your club. Its people like you that keep the wheels in motion for such events up and down the country well done. Hope the recovery is making progress.
Nell - good weekend run. How many weeks have you got to your race?
Carter – 12 days left? Have you recovered from Sat yet? Don’t worry, it’ll be NW to the rescue before long!
Carl – did you get that wind along the Thames yesterday? It was very blowy down in Surrey. I think that the tiredness at this point is ‘normal’ - a bit like 20m runs at silly o’clock on a Sunday morning. That kind of normal. I’m hoping to be able to bank some energy over the coming couple of weeks to be able to call on when the day comes.
So yesterday’s final LSR of 20m brought to a close a 50m week and the start of taper time.
As mentioned before, I’m more metric than an imperial, so I’d broken the run down today into 2 x 10km chunks, and 12km to finish. Total 32km
The plan was to do each of the 10k’s in 51m - 5.10m/km (8.20m/m) and then the last 12k at MP 5m/km (8m/m)
The fuelling strategy was 1 gel after the first 10km, another at 18km and the last at 26km to get me to the finish.
Additionally, I was only carrying water for hydrations as previous experiments with the sports drink/gel combination was causing me an upset stomach.
Having left the house with 2 layers, after 5 mins of stretching outside and waiting for Garmin to kick in, I decided that the weather warranted a change of clothes as it was a bit chilly and the dark clouds over the hills definitely meant a drenching at some point in the proceedings.
Hat, gloves and a rain-proof jacket on, I was off.
If last Sunday felt like a summer run, this week was the other 3 seasons all rolled into one. At various points along the way it was cold, wet, (very) windy, but also spring like. A right old mixture.
That aside, it’s only taken til the final LSR to get the pacing I wanted completely sorted. Passed 10k in 51.30 and the 20k mark in 1.42.30. The last 6 miles were into what seemed like a gale at times but managed to get to the end in 2.42
I’m not sure how much was left in the tank at the end of that. The hamstrings were very tight and the prospect of another 10k in 48 mins is daunting. But came through it and guess on the day won’t have covered 100 odd miles in the previous 2 weeks so can push a bit harder.
The old pair of trainers did their last outing yesterday too. Everything else now will be in the new pair that have clocked up some mileage in the last 3 weeks.
This week is scheduled to be a 38 mile week (oh the luxury!), and I’m planning a Parkrun on Sat to tick that one off the training programme.
19 days and counting
Hi Carl, Nice LSR there. I must say that the pace you ran on that LSR is the pace for a 3:15 LSR! I must admit I enjoy running early in the morning, especially in the week. One bizarre observation of early morning runs. The dogs are always well behaved :0) I find it nice running through the city centre early on the weekend, just has a nice feel when it is quiet....
Hi Sean, Wembley tickets the day before the marathon....lol! do you think you have the restraint? Well done on the LSR nice strong finish ;0)
I am playing my last game of footie this week until after the marathon, the physio was pleased about that today!
Hi Canter, You flick between Imperial and metric and confuse me
. Well done on the last LSR, and now time to enjoy the taper, sounds like you are ready for it. I think you will come out the taper pretty strong and feel a good time coming from you...
Recovery run this morning, 3.5 miles and then a trip to the physio this afternoon for a massage and assessment. Things are going ok with the body, but it is amazing how she knows where every pull and tear I have made over the last 3 weeks! I pulled my calf just before the HM the other Sunday and I thought it was ok, but she noticed it was not right. After S&C last Friday I felt the back of my thigh's hamstrings aching and she was straight on it. I do find that she now knows my body better than me.... A true godsend ;0)
As I said earlier she was happy that I was giving up the footie for the moment, she doesn't approve
. Especially when she found out it was at footie that I pulled the calf.....
Forgot to reply Canter, 9 weeks until Edinburgh and my long runs just beginning!
So at the moment legs are feeling quite nice, ready to be mashed on the hill reps in the morning!
So I keep see you guys and others in different threads talking about these 'recovery runs', but personally ive never tried one. Yesterday I decided to run home from work, 4.63 miles and a very gentle 9 min mile pace and give this recovery lark a go. It ended up being 42 minutes of pure hell. I was puffing an panting for the first 2 miles with a massive stitch in my sides and lungs that felt like they were about to rupture, then I seemed to ease up the next 2 so all seemed well, but I still wasn't quite right in my stride. However i've woken up this morning and my knees feel shot to pieces (although my legs feel Okay though, so I guess its worked from that aspect).
Hmm I see the science behind a recovery run, however I think ill just stick to a day-off in future. Horses for courses and all that I guess.Carl/Canter - thanks for you comments on my reports etc. To be honest, I am enjoying doing the reports as it's right up my street (you have probably realised I like waffling on this thread
). There is a tendency to upset a few people, which obviously is not my intention. I know I again missed a few PBs etc from my report, but if people don't tell me in time I can't do much about that.
Carl, it was strange spectating. Other than London I've never really spectated at a race before; I have marshalled a few events but that isn't really spectating. I think the main thing I noticed is that the front runners were working extremely hard and were really pushing themselves in a way I don't think I have ever done. I like to think I push myself hard, but those guys generally seemed to be experiencing a whole different level of hurt to what I do! By comparison, there were a few "middle of the pack" runners who were running in pairs and talking to each other saying things like "crikey, this is tough - I don't know if I can maintain this pace" when they were 400m from the finish, but those front guys wouldn't have been able to utter a single intelligible word. I know this was only a local 10K (850 runners) and I don't know how this transfers to a marathon, but that was the main thing I took away from spectating.
Hi everyone
Carl that is a very fast 20 miles. Your fitness is through the roof just now.
Sean- for me a recovery run is an easy run the day after a long or hard run. But it doesn't replace a day off for me. You can still have 4 'quality' sessions a week (hills, speed, tempo, LSR etc) but do one recovery run after your long run. On most marathon plans it is the kind of '4m easy' run popped in there.
Canter- you seem to have managed to stick well to your plan? Am I right? Lots of high mileage weeks and a really structured training from you.
Nell- cold baths... very disciplined.... I do not wish to put myself through that!
G- funny enough I was talking about the exact thing you are talking about the other week with my mum. When I did my HM in 1:50 and to me, on that course, yeah it was tough but all the way round I could exchange words with people (and did) easily enough. And therefore afterward when my mum (who was spectating) was telling me about all the first finishers gasping for breath and looking like the whole race was an 'all out' effort, I jokingly said something along the lines of 'maybe I just need to run all out instead of running at a pace I can speak at, simple as that, and I'd be a lot faster'
Now obviously this, strictly, is true, but why are they able to push themselves that hard the whole way when I'm not strong enough to push myself to that level? It got me thinking that part of what makes elites elite is the mental strength it takes to run a marathon or half marathon or any other distance, so fast that they literally couldn't go any faster. Maybe we are all physically capable of pushing harder but are not psychologically strong enough to keep that sustained effort without giving in to the aches, pains, nausea and breathlessness that come along with it.
So after a few gym strength sessions and some non running cardio work today I tested my legs as the big pain that was my foot has subsided somewhat and really felt much better to walk on today.
Went to the gym and discovered that a gentle jog for a short while seemed to feel fine for my foot/ankle. So I did 10 minutes on the treadmill nice and easy then did some weight exercises. Then repeated 4 times. It's not much but I am happy that I could run at all.
I know I've been bad ignoring your advice (Sean particularly who probably wisely told me to take 2 weeks off) but I am a stubborn mule who hates not running.
My foot has improved rather quickly and if it felt bad on the treadmill I really would stop but I stress I was running extremely slowly and just wanted to test it in between bouts of strength stuff.
I continue to watch from the sidelines at everyone's more exciting running
Hi Sean, What works for one doesn't necessarily work for another. I have kept my recovery runs down to 3-4 miles and have found they help after the LSR and a hard run. I have to be careful not to aggravate the ITB so just take it easy...... if it doesn't agree with you best to just rest :0)
Hi Ali, I suppose if you must take a run it may be best on the treadmill. Remember any pain...stop!
The cold baths are hell for the first few minutes, but when you acclimatise and don't move you are fine, as long as you have got a nice mug of tea to keep you warm, trick is to sit in the bath and then turn the tap on and let the bath fill up around you, legs feel great after
or maybe they are just numb!!
Evening all.
Last week was my first week of tapering. I really struggled on all of the 3 runs I did and felt really sluggish for some reason. After listening to Marathon Talk podcast last week I have tried something a little different. They put forward a suggestion where week 1 of your taper is a cut back week, week 2 you can actually increase your mileage/intensity and week 3 you cut back and get plenty of rest ready for the big day. Week 2 where you increase your mileage/intensity you obviously don't go mad and overdo it. I quite like the sound of this so yesterday I did a gentle trot at lunchtime and the legs were still feeling a bit weak. So today I did 6 miles with 1 mile warm up at MP, 4 miles at HMP and 1 mile at MP. I was hoping this would 'blast' any sluggishness out the legs and so far it seems to have done the trick. As I only did 19 miles last week I think I will do about 30 this week and next week just a couple of short runs.
I had an email today from the organisers and they are doing live tracking and automatically uploading your progress into Facebook along with some of your photos. So I've signed up for that lot. 11 sleeps to go.....
Sean - yes on reflection it was a good LSR. Fast. Was it too fast ? Time will tell. If I can repeat that on race day I will set a PB. It was not easy and I am not sure I could have gone for another 6.1 miles on Sunday. But it does not get me a 3:30 time. That needs much more effort. Hard to imagine how I will do that.
Sounds like you had a great LSR as well and finished very strong. Looks like you are in great shape heading into the world of taper madness
Canter - it was windy on the embankment on Sunday but nothing like last Thursday night where in all honesty I thought I was going to die. The weather needs to improve for race day. I no longer find this wind funny
Great LSR from you too, 3 mins faster than the time I managed. Yes another 10k is daunting and doing it in 48mins after running for over 2hrs40min seems really far fetched at the moment. Maybe as you say when our bodies have had time to recover we will be able to contemplate such madness.
Nell - there is no way that I will get anywhere close to 3:15. Not even going to start daring to dream. Too far fetched. One goal at a time. Must think about my goals for race day.
Sean - I am with you on the recovery runs. They do not do too much for me and I just cannot see the point of running at fast walking pace for 3-4 miles. Plus my OH would kill me if I went out again. She is very understanding as it is but that would be pushing boundaries. Happy to take the rest instead.
Big G - interesting observations on the front runners. From where I am I have always wondered how people go so much faster at what seems like an effortless pace. But maybe it is not. Maybe it is just that they work harder for it and even though I think I am working hard I am not really.
Ali - really pleased that you were able to get some running in at the gym even if it was slow. The main thing is that you had no niggles. I fully get the being stubborn bit.
Nell - cold baths. I have been contemplating them but have never been brave enough to try it out. But this is typical of you. You go that extra bit on all the peripheral stuff to help your performance. It seems to be working for you so keep it up.
Carter - great to hear from you. Was wondering what you were up to. Looks to me like you cut back your mileage too much in Week 1. I came down from 50 miles the week before last to 44 miles last week. This week being week 1 of my taper will be approx 38 miles and next week approx 30 miles. Keeping the intensity just gradually reducing mileage with the long run being 15 miles this week and 10 next week.
Another mad day at work and I did not hit the running track until 9.30 tonight. It was dark and with little cloud cover very cold. In fact despite wearing a hat and glovers my hands never warmed up.
The plan tonight was 10 x 800m at circa 10k pace.
Splits as follows :
3:23 ; 3:23 ; 3:20 ; 3:21 ; 3:17 ; 3:15 ; 3:13 ; 3:10 ; 3:06 ; 3:03
Last time I did 800m intervals was 4 weeks ago. Splits that evening were
3:26 ; 3:26 ; 3:24 ; 3:24 ; 3:23 ; 3:23 ; 3:24 ; 3:14
So I seem to have improved which is surprising considering that I have put the old legs through the works since then and covered alot of miles.
Ali – how is the heel feeling now ? What’s your plan for getting back out on the roads ? The beers and curries have proven to be not as effective as Magners and kebabs !
Big_G – great reporting. I guess it’s one of those roles where you aren’t going to please all the people all the team, I’m sure you’re doing a far better job than they could do.
Nell – it’s good to see you are starting to increase those long runs ! I wish I had a physio like yours as the two that I’ve seen before didn’t seem as interested in me as yours does of you. How often do you go to see your physio and do you see her whether you feel you need to or not ?
Sean – I’m with you on the ‘recovery runs’. If I’ve been for a long run and then go for a recovery run the next day I don’t feel as though it has benefitted me at all.
Canter – get in there, no Warnock for us !! It’s now 11 days to go and I’m still feeling fairly calm about the whole thing…at the moment. Sounds like your training has gone well and you are now ready for the taper. Have you got a target in time for London ?
Carl – I’ve been really busy at work recently and given that I was doing most of my posting to this thread when at work that will be why I haven’t been on here too regularly recently. I agree with you about cutting back my mileage too much last week, not that it was planned that way. Glad to see you still putting out come cracking intervals. Same question for you, have you settled on your target for London yet ?
So, yesterday lunchtime was a 6 mile jaunt that was intended to blow the cobwebs away and get rid of this sluggish feeling. 1 mile 'warm up' @ MP, 4 miles @ HMP and 1 mile 'cool down' @ MP. It seems to have done the trick and, apart from the usual niggles I have to deal with (now consisting of a sore heel, calf, knee and shin on the opposite leg from my ITB) I am feeling good. I hope I feel like this come race day. I'm looking at doing a total of 30 miles this week with my weekend run being 12 miles @ MP. Next week will be a couple of short runs and after yesterday's session I think I might try and repeat that one on Thursday, being my last run before the race.
I've got a sports massage booked in for next Monday - is 6 days before the race too soon/later or about right in everyone's experience ?
Anyone know anything about knees? I think my is broken. Very painful all last night, and quite sore today. Hopefully just bruised anyway. Ouch.
If you want to know about knee pain I'm your man. Or Nell. We have both struggled with ITB issues. For a broken knee I think it's best if you get it mended.
lol! nice one carter! Good to see you are feeling good in yourself Carter. Just take it nice and easy up to that starting line now....
yes, I must admit I am pretty lucky with my physio. I am visting every 3 weeks at the moment Carter. I may up it up to every 2 weeks after the next visit, I will see how I feel. I visit whether I am good or bad, but when not training hard make it once a month. As she is a runner, and still competative it means we just talk running all through the hour. I think my wife would pay for the session just to let me get all the running talk out of my system with someone else!
Hi Sean, If you have a heel strike that can cause the knee to bruise and be quite sore. Up the cadence...If it is broken try not to run on it!
Hi Carl, Good splits and it is good to see you are getting that better time on the splits. You sound in great shape at the moment and well done for another late shift! Yes, I must agree the cold baths are not great fun, but they do the business ;0)
10 miles this morning for me. Lovely morning, bit cold but sunny and hardly any wind...really enjoyed it
goodness this thread has sparked into life! I'll be back....
Apologies in advance if I miss anyone out. It’s been a hive of activity on here!
Carl – Great session there again - those interval times are a reflection of your improved fitness over the period. Have you moved now? I’m based in Holborn/Chancery Lane but co-incidentally we are on the move next month. We should do a wind down session and a beer at some point.
Nell – I’m with your physio on the football thing. The first marathon I trained for way back in the mists of time, I was still playing football every week too. 5 weeks from the race date someone stood on my foot in a tackle and snap: broke a bone in my foot. (This was in the pre Beckham days so everyone referred to it as a ‘bone’ as opposed to a metatarsal). Even with 9 weeks to go its risky.
Sean – recovery runs. I’m with Ali on this one. After a 20/22 miler to only recovery I need to think about is a non-active one. During this schedule I’ve been quite diligent about those rest days in. I reckon 95% of the weeks I’ve done have been 4 days running with 3 days off. But you know, everyone is different and has an approach that works for them.
Ali – good to see you taking a sensible approach to that injury. You have plenty of time to let it recover and still be on tract with your schedule. I’ve been following a 16 week programme (Asics 26.2 one) but started late so it became a 14 week one. A few weeks ago I picked up a slight niggle, tendinitis, accompanied by a virus that laid me low for a couple of weeks. So the 14 week plan effectively ended up being a 12 week one. But if I missed a session, it stayed missed, and there was no attempt to make up for anything lost. Not the approach that everyone would take, but again it’s worked for me thus far.
Carter – good to see you again see you’ve not gone taper crazy! I was reading somewhere recently that a good taper plan was to take the last full week and apply a reduction of say 25% - 30%.
So that would give 50m x 0.70 = 35 miles week 1.
35m x 0.70 = 24m Week 2
24m x 0.70 = 17m week 3
Again, quite a few theories/opinions around that one.
I’ve been following that Asics schedule which is billed as the 3:30 training plan, and I’ve been working on the basis that 5 min/km (8m/m) is my MP. I’ll be thinking how that breaks down into a plan for the day over the next couple of weeks – e.g. target milestones, a negative split, following the pacers (?) . All of which will probably go out the window on the day!
Getting to the start in good shape is an achievement for us all in any race.
17 days, 11 sessions and 60 miles to go….
Carter - My head is all over the place about race day pacing strategy. Need to spend some quiet time working through it. What about you ?
Important thing now is for you to wrap yourself in cotton wool and make the start line. Re sports massage. 6 days is probably ok. You will need a few days recovery after it.
Sean - broken knee ? Cannot be surely. How do you break your knee. Nell and Carter are experts in ITB issues. Nell is an expert in anything to do with potential injuries.
Nell - good 10 miles from you today. Once this marathon is done I am going to try and move my week day running to either early morning or lunchtime.
Canter - yes moved office over the weekend and now near Holborn. Catching up after the big day to swop war stories could be on the cards.
Like you I have been broadly following the Asics plan and MP should be 8 m/m flat. But is taht too quick from the outset ? Should I start a little slower and build up as I go ? Do not want to blow up. Need to decide what is important. Finishing - definitely. getting a PB - definitely That means beating 3:58. Should be doable. Sub 3:40 is on. But can I get close to 3:30. I remember that Ricky trained very well for Dublin last October and did not quite make the 3:30. It is always tough to transfer training performances into race day.
Anyway mmy plan said 8 miles steady for tonight. Was home early (for once) and covered 9 miles at 8:16 min/mile. Felt good throughout and no ill effects from the late night speed session.
Hi Canter, Yes I have had that injury before all the Beckhams and Rooneys of this world ;0) and yes you are among the list of physio and running friends and wife, although she only wants me to stop football so that I'll be at home for the usual mayhem! Enjoy the mulling over of your strategy...
Hi Carl, Morning running is the way. I love it, and it means it is all done and dusted before you start the day. Also means you are not worrying about fitting it in later. Some of the sessions you have completed on a regular basis are commendable indeed! As I have said before you are in a good place and after the taper I think you will be up for it big time ;0)
I do sometimes feel like a potential injury waiting to happen!
Hello folks - long time no post! Lots going on - just had a bit of a speed read to catch up..
Some great training & PBs I see - Carter: delighted to see you seem to have conquered the knee problems and look like finally making the start line!
Nell: awesome HM PB - you are a machine
Carl: had a quick look through your recent training splits - you are at an almost identical pace as I was when approaching taper for Dublin. I think 3:30 is on for you if it comes together on the day so if I were you I would stick with 8.00 mml strategy. I began to suffer glute & hamstring tightness & pain a week before Dublin and ran with pain from the word go on the day. I ran with 3:30 pacers until 8mls but then made a decision coming out of Phoenix park to drop back to 8:30 pace for fear of the soreness increasing as I fatigued. In the event it didn't and the discomfort was fairly constant all the way round. The plus side was that the final 6 miles were not hellish as in previous marathons but I did finish feeling I had underperformed with my 3:39 and could have pushed on a bit more in the mid section. So based on my experience & similar pace to you I would say go out at 8.00 mml pace as planned however if you aren't 'feeling it' don't be afraid to back off a little and get that 'B' goal of sub 3:40 in the bag. Hope that helps!
Carl. Lol, sorry I didnt mean literally broken, but broken in the sense of it wasn't working and very painful. ha ha.
It feels fine today, as does my achilies also. Brought my kit and garmin into work so as long as its not raining at lunch im going to try a speedy 10k tempo style run along the canal. Going for a time of around 43 mins anyway. We shall see.Hi Ricky, Good to hear from you. What are your plans for spring?
Like a machine? Yes, sometimes when I get up for a run in the morning I feel like a knackered out old 70's Datsun!
Hi Sean, glad to hear you are feeling better again, just click on a new knee? Good luck with the tempo run later...
Out this morning for a 5 miler, another sunny, windless morning. That is four on the bounce, can't believe it. Legs were a bit tired from yesterday as I pushed it a bit on the 10 miler. Last footie game tonight and then I can concentrate fully on the training. In a way I will be glad as it does knock my sessions about a bit (did have 8 down on the plan today). Fingers crossed I don't do a Beckham.... Canter?!
Picked this up from another thread. An interesting read on tapers
http://www.runnersworld.com/race-training/taper-traps?page=single
Canter - interesting indeed. I reckon I must have thought about most, if not all, of those points over the last couple of weeks. Thankfully, I have not been worrying about them but it is hard to be positive when you get a new pain shoot up your leg ! Or a pain in the heel, or tight calves or shin pains, all of which I have 'felt' in the last couple of weeks !
Nell - what's with the weather up there, we had a snow shower yesterday ! Be careful at the footy tonight to; no crunching tackles !
Sean - glad to see the broken knee is mended. Have a good, quick run today.
Ricky - good to hear from you again. don't be such a stranger.
Carl - I settled on my target pace about 3/4 weeks ago - 8:30 which would bring me home in 3:43, which is well inside my original target of 4:00 hours (from 16 months ago when we started out on this !). Having done several long runs in my training, including the 21 mile hilly off road race, I am confident I can run 26.2. For me, it's the unknown of how my body will cope at 20 miles of MP running. Will I feel OK ? Will I be blowing out my .... ? When do I push on, if indeed I can push on ? I've not set myself any B or C goals either, it's all about getting under 3:45. That may well be the wrong attitude to have but I would be absolutely gutted if I finish and feel as though I could have given more.
Good read Canter, although I am not thinking about the taper at the moment, I am only just finishing week 8 of 16, a lot more work to do
Hi Carter, The weather has been pretty good so far this week. every morning has been cold but sunny with not a lot of wind. Started to rain this afternoon. On the whole cannot complain. No snow, you can keep that. You seem to be pretty level headed on the marathon Carter. After all the grief you have had enjoyment should be top of the list, you have had to wait a long time for this!