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Sub 3 hour London Marathon 2014 VLM
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A mate of mine came in at brighton in 4:00:01 !!! we still take the p*ss out of him!
The first time I was going for sub 3 at London I came in 3:00:48 - ouch!!! A pb by 7 mins but still absolutely gutted!
I was on the shoulder of the sub 3 pacer from 16 miles on but I soon realised two things:
Because he was so comfortable at the pace, he would glance at his watch and if he felt he was a little behind the pace he would put in little 200 yard or so surges at 6:20 pace!
So that people could see him and because he was so comfortable he was avoiding the running line and running wide all the time!
The surges were killing me and I was running farther than I should so by about 22 miles I let him go/ he pulled away.
Not sure whether it made 49 secs of difference or not but for my two successful sub 3s I have kept him behind me by some distance - I prefer it that way!!!
I know it is a VLM thread but I am doing Manchester. I hope it wont be as congested as London and the pacer has no problems. I don't trust myself to go off at a sensible pace and keep to it.
Long run tomorrow rather than Sunday so day off today. I will be trying to hit last 5 miles at close to MP (6.52 - 7.00).
16 mile run done with last 5 averaging 6.47. That felt tough, hopefully it will get easier. 26.2 miles at that pace is scaring me
It's on the start of jan luckily. Looking back at last year they are quicker than same time last year.
My main problem is my piriformoris is causing me pain as soon as I up the pace - anyone had this before?
had exact same run today Wenty so wondering myself whether I can get sub 3. Plenty of time to go I guess, no problems with distances 20+ just need to get faster! I guess plan be will be achieve a pb which will be gfa again take lessons learnt from training and try again 2015
Forgive me guys for butting in, been lurking a while and feel the need to post my experience. What I would say immediately is DON'T PANIC!
Looking back to 2007 when I ran my first sub-3, this last weekend was a med-long on Sat and a XC race on the sunday. The weekend after was a long run of 17.4 miles in 2:15 @ 7:46 pace, the last 5 at 7:18 pace. This was on the towpath so dead flat and reasonably good conditions. So anything around 8min pace at the moment is adequate, and don't worry about hitting target MP at the end of the run just yet.
My mid-week 80% run was 9.6 miles at 7:17 pace, so that was nowhere near target either.
Looking forward in 2007 - 11th Feb was my first 20. Again flat, 2:38:28 (7:55 pace) last 5 in 7:11 (still not MP). Mid-weeker was 12.4 incl 10.16 at 6:55 pace (getting there).
I didn't hit target for the last 5 of the long run till 4th March!
So, Rome wasn't built in a day. Keep on keeping on. Wenty, I had hamstring probs in September last year and this developed into piri problems. Sitting and rolling on a tennis ball helps, along with trampet running to warm-up. Also squats and lunges to strengthen the area. Will be keeping a close eye on you guys...Good luck!!
Cheers Brian thats really good to know.I have not totally given up hope but just know i am a bit behind the pace. I did 15 miles saturday and felt a bit better at a better pace and had some good hills (8m) and did some of my fastest hills and managed a 5:30 mile at the end on the flat slightly downhill, so that gave me confidence. Thanks for advice on piri problems - i will get on the squats tonight!
I have a 10k in 3 weeks which i need to do sub 38 min and half a week later which i need a sub 1:27 to really give me half a chance. Similar time for your long run as i am currently doing! Did you up the pace much later on?
Wenty, where's your 10k and HM?
Here's a few more 2007 benchmarks:
18/3 20M race at Spen: 2:19 @6:56 pace. Tough hilly road run so was pleased with that.
30/3 Flat 22miler with last 5 at 6:50 pace (spot on!).
6/4 Salford 10k (flat, fast) 37:14 was a pb for me at the time.
8/4 Last long, 17M @ 7:42, last 5M @ 6:59 pace.
22/4 LM 2:58:59, pb by over 4mins.
OK Brian now you are scaring me!
might be able to achieve the 20M race at 2:19 (as its a race)
22miler training run with last 5 at 6:50 eek - no way
last long run 7:42 with last 5 at 7mm - maybe a good chance and thats what i need to be aiming for.
My main problem seems to be that i race so much faster than i train at. last year I did 3:13 of the back of little training and rarely ran faster than 8mm.
my 10k best is 38:50 so 6:20 mm but again thats after training at 8mm paces. Am I weird or do other people do this. If i raced everywhere at those sorts of paces i would just end up injured. Is it fair enough to presume if i train 30 sec mile faster than last year then i will race 30 sec mile faster?
Wenty - Just want to echo what Brian's saying about training paces. Especially with the long runs, you might do more harm than good getting too focussed on it at this stage. As you're building up the mileage, I think 16M, 18M, 20M... etc. LRs will feel difficult at any pace, but give it a few weeks and it will start translating into faster paces which you can maintain for longer. OK, if you struggle to hold 6:50 pace for 10 miles towards the end of March, sub-3 might start looking like a tall order but for now I think you really need to have faith in the plan, train consistently at the right intensitíes, and see what comes out.
Also, FYI, I'm one of the official RW sub-3 pacers.
So I was interested to follow the discussion above. I've not paced full marathon length before but I have done a couple of HMs. 1:25 and 1:30 pace; the 1:30 was particularly textbook, with a finish time of 1:29:30 and splits of 1:44:45 / 1:44:44. Get in! (I finished 5 seconds outside the 1:25 target, mainly due to on-the-day course diversion involving running up 20-odd steps in the last mile to get over a bridge!!)
My normal easy run training pace is around 7:00 - 7:20/m, so I find it fairly easy to dial in to ~6:50 pace, so I'd hope that surges wouldn't be an issue. I'd be aiming for a 1:29:00 / 1:30:00 split for a finish time of 2:59:00, and I should be going off blue start (tbc) if that's any good to anyone here.
Wenty, you're not weird. The majority (70-80%) of your training should be done 1min/mile+ slower than target MP.
The mere thought of achieving MP at the end of a long run is a scary thought I know.
But it is easier physically than mentally. Running fast on tired legs is tough.
But it needs to be done. A marathon is all about how you perform in the last 10k, and the progressive long runs help in that area.
Soz Phil, x-post!
...oops! My pacing is better than my Monday morning maths, honest! That should of course be 44:45 / 44:44 splits without the extra hour each.
Thanks for the great posts by Brian61 and PhilPub
2 weeks ago was a 20 mile run at 4:17 per km avg page in 2hr 18min
and then 2 days ago 13 miles in 1:27 so pleased with progress so far.
This weekend I've got another 20 mile run on the cards with plans to beat my time from 2 weeks ago.
Good to get perspective from those of you who have cracked 3hrs and what your long run times were at this stage of training.
Do you think I am running too fast at the minute for these long runs? I'm hoping that the more running I do at Marathon pace the more used to I it I will get for the race.
PhilPub I may well take you up on that offer nearer the time
This is really helpful people and good to know that I am not completely off the training scale! Philpub, where is blue starting ? I am in the GFA area? is that blue? Impressive being a pacer, (I bow down)
Would you recommend following a pacer if you want to achieve a sub 3 or run your own race? (I would prefer the 1:44 splits
)
I am hoping that the long runs and the medium runs and intervals will start coming together in feb / march and i can throw some MP paces in then. I remember last year i was no where near at this point and it all came together then.
Thanks again for some great advice.
either you are capable of a lot faster or you will knacker yourself before the race.
At the same time last yr I was covering 20 miles in about 3 hrs.
Thanks for the feedback Millsy...I should qualify that the 20 mile run was not continuous in that I stopped about 3 times for a drink and energy gel break so that probably cost me a good few minutes etc. Still building up to practicing taking fuel onboard whilst on the move.
So you think if I keep up this level of training I risk burn out? I was hoping marathon pace training would make it feel more like normal come race day? I'm a fairly steady paced runner and can't do 60/70+ mile weeks as I just get injured so I tend to focus on quality rather than quantity.
I tend to find running at say 1min per mile slower just makes me joints ache in different places as I'm not running with the same form.
I've got a physiotherapy trainer friend who helps me try and stay in shape in terms of sports massage so that I don't over do it.
Is there any logic to my thoughts around training more at marathon pace so it becomes (for lack of a better term) "comfortable" as it can be for 3 hrs!?
Thanks again
hmm 20 training miles sounds a bit quick as that is basically 20 miles almost at MP!
I presume the 20 miles in 3 hours sounds a bit slow maybe!! (9:00 min miles! I would have thought 8:00 to 8:30 and thats coming from me) so between 2:40 and 2:50?
Wenty. I'm just saying the paced that worked for me. Might not work for everyone though.
For me, the long runs are all about increasing the number of mitochondria in the muscles so the run must be done aerobically. We all have our numbers but aerobic for me is around 7min miling +. I tend to hover around 7:15-7:30 during long runs and rarely go up to 20miles, 'long' in my book is 2hrs 15 to 2:30, so around 18miles.
I reserve my mara paced runs for midweek where i'll build up to 13miles, whilst ignoring heart rate.
My suggestion John would be that you're running them too fast, but what works for me might not work for you. Its tempting to run these at a pace to boost confidence but you run the problem of eeking into aerobic/anaerobic systems without particularly focusing on one or tuther.
Hope this helps
Millsy - I'm pleased you said that as it gives me confidence. If it works for you then it could work for me!
David good point that you should be working aerobically to build mitochodria, I presume this must be way below LT rate?
Thank you David M. and Millsy for those points...just been off reading said article to educate myself on the differences as I must admit I was not fully clued up!
http://runnersconnect.net/running-tips/aerobic-vs-anaerobic-training/
So basically as I understand it, I'm probably doing too much anaerobic running which means I'm just running on sugar stores / energy gels etc - rather than building up my aerobic fitness efficiency by running slower and aerobically which build up my mitochondria ? I guess this means I more likely to get lactic acid build up come 20+ miles on the day and hit the wall rather than maintain a steady pace throughout?
With that in mind should my next long run this weekend be a slower 20 miler? how much slower do you suggest per mile / km ? 30 seconds / 1 minute ?
Thanks again for your time
JohnBeadle, I agree with Millsy, you're either gonna do nearer to 2:50 or your gonna burn out.
Wenty, I think there are (at least) 2 types of long run, and we are not differentiating between them here.
Type 1, the time-on-your-feet run, is the one david mantle talks about.
Type 2, is the progressive long run where you might split it into 3 phases.
eg. 5miles easy, 10miles steady, and 5miles ~ MP.
For Type 1 - the pace is mostly irrelevant, and should just be done at a low intensity (65-70%HRmax).
Type 2 - the avg pace will probably end up in the 7:20-8:00 range, and for this run you would probably end up averaging ~75% HRmax.
If someone knows the correct explanation then please correct me.
Is this the one you were thinking of Millsy?
"Speaking of running, heard an interesting analogy yesterday. Imagine you're on the start line with a box of matches. Each match represents energy. You've got a certain number of matches to use throughout the run - say ten a mile. You can burn 11 matches in the first mile and go quicker early on, but it means you only have nine matches for one of the subsequent miles."
(http://www.runnersworld.co.uk/forum/events/paris-marathon-2014/257261-168.html)
Brian61 - i'd love to think running close to 2:50 is an option but my PB is 3:10 (2010) and last marathon was 3:22 (2012) on 8 weeks training following an injury in Jan / Feb so I need to be realistic.
What pace do you suggest for my weekend 20 mile run this week to make sure it is aerobic? 30 secs slower per km?
Thanks, John