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Sub 3 hour London Marathon 2014 VLM
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Wenty - I don't think there is any GFA off blue start, but there will be a pacer going off each start anyway. As to whether it's a good idea to use the services of a pacer, I think that depends on your situation. If I was a first timer, and all the indicators suggested that I could be in 2:55 - 3:00 sort of shape, and I was unsure about pacing myself, I'd definitely consider it. (Or if not a first-timer, maybe having had some bad pacing experiences, so preferring to take that worry out of my hands.) On the other hand there may cases where you're better off running your own race, e.g. Brian's a big fan of running according to heart rate, but you really want to know your zones if you're going to take that approach.
W.r.t. long run pacing - I think there's a danger in thinking that the long run is somehow directly linked to the marathon race itself, as if being a dress rehearsal, i.e. by running a little bit slower than target pace for a little bit short of the required distance, you're sort of mimicking the marathon, and by progressing the speed and the length, you'll eventually get to your target fitness. But think about recovery; 26.2 miles @ target pace = walking like John Wayne for a week, and possibly getting back to racing by late May!! But that's OK, after the race you've earned a bit of a rest. You can't afford to put your body through that much trauma during training because you still need to get your other training done.
John/Millsy, great analogy with regard to the matches.
I think in reality though, burning too many matches early on, counts for more (than 1-1) later.
To explain that better - by running 10s per mile too quick early on may cost you double or treble (20 or 30s per mile) later in the marathon.
Philpub, spot on matey.
John, is it to be a progressive or a time-on-your-feet run?
Progressive, i'd suggest running a flat 5M@8-8:30, 10M@7:30-7:45, and 5M@6:45-7:00
Time-on-your-feet, I'd suggest hilly (maybe even off-road), 2h15-2h45. Smell the coffee!!
Thanks Brian61 and PhilPub for your thoughts.
Must admit to not knowing where I am now in terms of progress? thought after the past 2 weeks I was in good shape for January and achieving a good pace...but reading everyones experience and knowledge here has made me question if I am doing the wrong sort of training runs and I don't like the feeling of not being confident in what I am doing in training.
Do people think I am in danger of peaking too soon?
John, that's a difficult one without knowing your background and more about your training, racing times.
Have you a prep race coming up? A HM would be an ideal marker for where you are.
The matches analogy sounds like TR from the sub-3 thread.
But he used it in relation to the training phase, and burning too many when racing prep races too hard.
Philpub - good point about recovery. I find a big difference between a long run which makes me tired and a long run with 8 miles MP which kills me! let along 20 miles near MP......
It does seem to come together on the day and i guess you need to keep faith in your training.
Brian beat me to it. A preparatory race really would be a good marker; it also gives you a good excuse for a cut-back week/mini-taper. If a hard-run HM suggests you're closer to (e.g.) 2:50 shape than 3:00, you can use this to inform your training paces (but still erring on the side of caution, especially w.r.t. to long run/easy run paces.)
Noted.
I ran 13 miles last weekend in 1:27 but I guess that is much close to potential 3hr marathon than 2:50?
Will try and look for some local HM races nearby in the coming weeks.
Maybe I will go for a mid week aerobic run just to get some experience for the feel / pace?
Just been for a tempo 10K on the treadmill at lunch and clocked just over 39 min. so I guess that needs work as well?
appreciate all of your input, will try and stay positive. I'm guessing mental belief / toughness is even more important that physical ?
does this advice on this link hold true ?
http://www.serpentine.org.uk/pages/advice_frank54.html
I hope it does not or i will have to be running 9 plus miles at 6:45 -6:50 and running regular 10ks at 6:20. Not so much using my matches as having a bloody big bonfire.
I hope thats wrong! the rest sounds sensible to me though
I'll have a proper read later and get back to you. One thing I know about Frank Horwill is he had some interesting ideas about training paces amongst other things!
Thanks Phil, this was the other one I read on that site
http://www.serpentine.org.uk/pages/advice_frank72.html
There's a fun session that I believe he dreamt up: warm up, then 10k, alternating 400m @ 5k race pace, 400m @ marathon pace. The only time I've ever looked forward to running at marathon pace!
Wow, lots of interesting discussions on here the last couple of days and great to hear from a RW pacer. I am hoping to cling on to one at Manchester.
Yesterday I went to an English Athletics marathon coaching session at St Mary's college in London. Ran by Nick Anderson (EA coach) and a couple of other people who worked with Mara Yamaouchi.
A lot was aimed at coaching for Elites but there was some useful tips in there.
At the end of the seminar we did a track session of..
Great session and the second 15 mins felt a lot easier after the harder work in the 3 mins sets.
I thought I would share some of that. As everyone is saying it is only mid January, plenty of time to build up the long runs and shorter pace
Oof!! I gave this a go once and it's TOUGH! One thing I don't agree with (based more on my own experience than anything else) is the relationship between marathon pace and pace for shorter races, where I think his predictor for the marathon based on 5k/10k times is a little aggressive. One of the reasons I gave this session a go was that my times were similar to the example he gave of a female runner aiming for 2:37. Her 5k pace was more like my 10k pace but I still struggled to keep the required paces over each lap (basically aiming to alternate 80 secs / 90 secs laps). Might have been more attainable doing it with a group.
Regarding the first link, I think his predictors are too specific to be applicable over different performance levels. 2 x HM plus 6.5 mins is a fairly tough ask for a good club runner, even tougher for the average runner IMO. Also I think the advice to train regularly at 10k/5k/3k pace depends on the runner; I don't think a novice runner will gain much from regular 3k pace running, compared to a good volume of easy pace, MP and threshold efforts, especially if not particularly accustomed to interval training.
Craig - Looks like some useful points there. Re: the 20 mile race, I think it's a bit too much to run all at MP (let alone racing flat-out). I've previously used them to run up to 15 miles @ target pace, although with hindsight the last one I did with a bit of a cold and I rather stubbornly tried to stick to target pace even though it felt harder than MP effort. Ho hum!
Wenty - don't get spooked! Remember I have done sub 3 twice without running a single mile of my training runs at marathon pace. The only exception to that are the once per week track sessions I do that are considerably faster than marathon pace.
Just to put the "cat among the pigeons" I am one of those who does the full distance in training and that has always given me a good predictor of my race time.
What I can say, is that the faster my average training pace for the week is in the months before the race, the faster has been my time.
Craig - nice tips there - sounds similar to the P&D book with their ideas.
Philpub if its too much for you then I wont even bother!
Interesting about one gear saying that when his overall average pace is faster the months before the marathon the faster his time on race day. I have been comparing my average times and they are faster then the previous year (although not fast enough yet), and more mileage. What more can you ask!
Agree with david, more than 1 way to skin the cat. I guess it's a matter of experimenting and seeing what works for you. It was HR training (Phil hinted at earlier) that helped me crack it. But I now run to pace, and have faltered more since changing my approach. Running the mara to HR means (or as meant to me) that you can't get it wrong. There's no wall, no crash and burn. But it's also cautious, and it leaves me thinking whether I could've gone much faster if I'd have been a bit braver.
Really interesting hearing peoples take on it though.
FWIW, For me the key sessions in breaking 3hrs were:
1. Progressive long runs (previously I just got slower)
2. Mid-week MP runs of 10miles.
Brian - its interesting you say you think the key sessions are
progreesive long runs and mid week mp runs as that is approach i am taking this year with the P&D schedule which has these factored in and seems to be successful.
I would have no idea how to run or train at HR.
Wenty the marathon talk podcast 25th Dec is an interview with Pete Pfzinger. He stresses the midweek MR as a key session. Also keen on strides but I haven't quite figured those out yet
Was interesting to hear his thoughts on the training plans.
Wenty, I'm not pushing it - it just worked for me after years of underachieving and then getting injured in 2005. No need to train at HR really, the paces required come from experience. Like I say I did run marathons to predetermined HRs, and it worked a treat! I am now trying to train to pace but time (age) is against me!!!
P&D schedules are pretty sound from my experience. Infact my schedule is based on P&D sessions. Don't think you'll go far wrong with that approach - just don't be afraid to back-off if the body starts to protest.
Brian, my body always protests! Age is against me as well. I generally try and hit the key sessions - Long runs and medium runs expecially LT ones and MP ones. I skip some of the recovery runs and rest (but i do a hard hills session on sunday after a long run on saturday which is not in the plan).
Jeremy - where is the marathon podcast? I guess i can google it.
www.marathontalk.com for direct download or can download from iTunesi
Cheers J. will have a listen
Everyone is saying how key the mid week runs are and even though it is the training plan it is the session I skip most often. Where I live there are no street lights and to get a 10-12 mile run around the local town takes multiple loops of a hilly route.
I need to find somewhere to do these sessions.
Brian: What pace would you do these mid week runs at?
Craig - The P&D has them run at different paces but normally will be something like
10-12 miles with 5-6 at HMP or just a GA 10-12 mile run or 10-12 mile with strides.
I think it depends what other sessions yo are doing in that week, but generally speaking they are quite tough sessions.
I will start these next week!
Craig, there are some good headtorches out there nowadays. I use a Zebralight H51 for the early runs.
what time do you get out then Andrews?