My #asics262 journey to Paris: Sub-3 Roger

RUTH MCKEAN

welshgje wrote (see)

When I take water on a run I usually add a Nuun tablet - http://www.nuun.com/

They were recommended to me by Lowri Morgans (Ultra runner). She uses them all the time but I don't think she is sponsored by them.

Hi, welshgji, rarely needed for a marathon unless super hot and even then most  would not need these, ultra running ..now that a whole other story and may well be needed!

Barry B wrote (see)

Ruth/Steve - Thanks, I do struggle in the later stages of the race to take gels on, maybe the body's way of telling me I've had enough.  Going on from that how long does it take for the gel to get in to your system, so at what point is there no further gain to be had by taking a gel?

A gel will start acting within minutes as the sugar sends a signal to the brain from the mouth but say 15mins to have a fuller effect. So if 2km before end of race then a mouth wash of a carb drink could actually help. The best advice is to take before you expect to fatigue but I really do not think you need any more than 2 per hour and you may want to mix it with gels and jelly sweets if get taste fatigue and even a wee boost of caffeine in last hour of race (caffeine peaks at around about an hour but will have an effect from about 15 minutes after taking it but exact peak times etc will vary from person to person).  If using caffeine suggest not more than 3 x your body weight so if weigh 75kg then no more than 225mg of caffeine over the whole race) and less may work just as well for some.

 

 

 

RUTH MCKEAN

Roger Reid wrote (see)

Saturday I had a very muddy run in the woods, found a nice steep hill and did. 6 hill reps of about 30 seconds each. 5.5 miles overall. Little stiff setting out on. A 15 mile run Sunday, fine once I warmed up, till 11miles then started to feel a bit flat, 1gel got me home. I think I will start running the longer runs with a hydration pack. What are thoughts on gels/ fueling for the longer runs, I try not to fuel too much on my runs so as to teach the body to burn fat. I initially couldn't even do a short run without a isotonic drink. Now I manage up to about 80-90 minutes without anything longer runs my performance is compromised without hydrating and fueling. What are your thoughts Steve, Ruth?

 

Minni wrote (see)

Roger - I'm really surprised you seem to need so much fuel in runs. A gel at 11 miles to get you home?  Do you think you were running those too fast and just got fatigued?

I don't take gels in long runs (and definitely not shorter runs) unless I'm practicing them for the marathon and only carry water.  In the marathon its SIS and water.

 

 Roger

It would be good to see what your day to day eating looks like as it would me to understand better?  You could email this to me rather than post here.

You have a lot going on in your life and this  will  take energy from you and need to account for this in fatigue issues.

I do not think you need to fuel for runs under 90minutes unless practising taking these for a race... even fluid should be ok for this distance. However,  if you have done back to back days of training you may need to fuel in runs shorter than 90minutes particularly if not recovering well (food, sleep, rest etc) . We are all different and I would fuel during the run if  know the run is going to be longer than 90minutes as a general rule. I would take a gel or a few jelly sweets every 30-40minutes and sip water as you feel you need.

[Deleted User]

Thanks Ruth that is helpful, I will get your email and try put together my diet for you.



I am feeling really strong at the mo all is well, with the exception of Mondays run where I felt flat. I did a tough 11 miles last night. 3 M warm up then 6 M alternating between 6.10 and 6.40, the 2 M jog. The first of the fast miles I felt like I wasn't going to be able to sustain that pace, after that I got Strover and felt great. I will try again to drop the stats in here. Hopefully it doesn't scramble it again. Mmm, struggling, try this link:



http://connect.garmin.com/activity/426811002

[Deleted User]

PS lap 9 was a bit short my mates watch stopped us a bit early

[Deleted User]

My run today. Felt good after intervals last night. I am also enjoying this very mild January running in temperatures sometimes in the double figure AND without a minus in front of it.



http://connect.garmin.com/activity/427110825

Steve Marathon Coach

Roger

the training is going really well and your fitness is clearly well ahead of where you need to be.

It was another good session today and yesterday was very good but quite hard and I think today might have been better slightly slower as that is three fairly hard days in a row. Sometimes when you are fit and training well, you sometimes have to ease back a bit as the peak has to come in April.

[Deleted User]

Thanks Steve, yes I think I will rest today in prep for xc race tomorrow and big day on Sunday.

Steve Marathon Coach

ok - good luck tomorrow and suggest holding back a bit at the start as you have had a very tough week and don't want to build up tiredness too early but you are very strong so should be able to come through the field on the second half.

Also-ran

Things look like they are going well Roger  (lots of posts too, but not sure where Seren et al are now ). A couple of questions from me

- What are the main differences in your training compared to previous marathons?

- I notice you run using a garmin 620 and was looking at some of your stats, in particular your cadence. Have you had any thoughts about raising it. Not sure how big an impact it plays, but it was one of the things I focused on previously. I'm not saying to change things now in the middle of a campain though.

CC2 - Speedy Goth

I'm still here, but now that I'm back at work and in full training I don't have much time to post on all of the threads I follow. Work really messes up the day! 

I too have XC tomorrow, but I don't consider it a race really, it's just a hard training session. And being a girlie, mine will be shorter than Roger's.

[Deleted User]

Hi also-ran (great name) I think previously I ran less often but further and faster, so only running 4-5 times a wk still about the same mileage. One long run 18-22 miles one big interval or mp session with the serpies 11-15 miles but with pace going to 5.55 sometime, short with recovery. One hills and 1-2 8-9 milers. More rest days or if I was training for triathlons too I would cycle in from Hertfordshire to London and sometimes back 1-2 times per wk. one of the things Steve has quite correctly done is separate the long runs and the intervals. I often did those back to back. Obviously I am solely focused on running at the mo.

With regard to the cadence, I definitely have increased it over the last 2 years I was a big heal lander I have shortened my stride. Now I strike more on the mid foot I think. Try to but I only just got the Garmin so I have not ever measured or made much conscious thought about this. What is ideal? I saw a great video on twitter this week of the elite runners in slow motion but can't find it again. Beautiful to watch.

Also-ran

Hi Roger, I have heard and read on numerous occassions that 180+ is ideal and often seen in elites. On easy paced runs I am in the low 170s, and it increases to approx 180 when I hit MP and above. I was reading Julian Goaters book, and he recommended high cadence on easy days as well. I can't quite hit that - it need to much concentration when I just want to shut off and relax

I recently moved from using a footpod for cadence to the 620, and cadence seems to be recorded lower by a stride or two.

I too have recently upped my running to 6/7 days per week from 4 to 5. Physically I have adapted, but fitting it around life is the bigger battle. I'm sure the consistency of training will provide quite a lift To confidence and performance come race day 

Steve Marathon Coach

Hope the cross-country went well. my league was very average and didn't feel 100%.

I haven't really got into cadence levels - perhaps I should. I've always felt you should run as naturally as you can unless you are making fundamental errors in overstriding or shuffling and have no idea what my cadence levels are.

lou Diamonds

Hi Roger, Great thread and good that you have so many contributing.  I've recently been tracking my cadence after reading Goater's book - I think 180 it touted as the sweet spot in cycling too - but unfortunately I seem to be languishing around 156 on my easy runs.  I'm a midfoot striker, but I think I tend to over stride slightly. Tempted to get a footpod so I can get some data without counting as I'm sure this must introduce some observational bias.

Whenever, I try to quicken it I feel like I'm stamping down and cutting the step short, so not particularly light or natural. 

My thought though, is that ideal cadence must surely be influenced by height, so at 6'1" I'm always going to have a longer and thus slower stride than some who is 5'7", say.

CC2 - Speedy Goth

Lou, you have been counting your steps in your head? I can't count while running. My brain ceases to function! 

My XC today was below par, but still enough to count for the team again. We won the league so I now have a funky new trophy.

Steve Marathon Coach

well done on trophy cc2 - hopefully better run than county? - looks like Roger had really good run in met league - his highest position I think.

lou Diamonds

Cc2 - as someone who works in a mathematical profession I'm hopeless at counting, but I seem to get fairly consistent results over 30s. Only ever tried it at easy pace though.

Well done on the xc prize.

Minni

After reading this before my long run this morning I counted my steps for 3 minutes during the run.  One about a mile in (180), one half way through (191) and one towards the end (181). 

I have got no idea what this means and what you do with the information.  Is it good to know and should you change it if its not right?

I'm small at 5ft 1.  I would have thought smaller people would have a higher cadence.

 

CC2 - Speedy Goth

I did no counting whatsoever on my 20 miler this morning. Why is it that I can knock out a 20 at 8 pace and feel fine at the end, yet I can't race 6k????? 

[Deleted User]

Hello everybody - you're using a different energy system for a 20 miler; 6k pace will be so much quicker so perhaps you could look at more - and shorter - intervals done at a higher work rate and also include more strides to help with faster leg turnover.

Minni

Ah right is that what it is?  I was going to simply tell speedy it's because that's what us ladies find the easiest. 

I count a lot when running, more so in races. I start when I get tired and that's often the first sign.  1,2,3,4 is my favourite but I also go to 8, 20, 50, 100. Nothing between. 

CC2 - Speedy Goth

Or it might just be that I'm unfit and my lungs haven't yet sufficiently recovered from the lurgy.

[Deleted User]

Sounds as if you're doing well if you've just had the lurgy!  Better now than before the marathon

[Deleted User]

Seems like there've been some good efforts going in over this weekend: Roger's XC (keen to hear more, when you get the chance, R), and a solid 20 there from CC2 among others...

I'm coming off the back of a bit of a cold this week. I took three days off running in the hope that I would still be able to get some high mileage in this weekend. Managed an okay hills session yesterday (30 mins of hills; 8 miles total incl. w/up and c/down), and 15 miles today, averaging 7:27 pace.

Steve Marathon Coach

Obviously some people feel comfortable running 8s and can go at that pace for a long time, but if you are doing a short race, then the tendency is to start fast and (run much faster than 8s) get out of breathe early on and never get into the comfortable state you do in a steady run. If you aren't doing much speedwork, then you have to make sure you start steadier in shorter races and try and work your way through.

some good runs today.

 

Steve Marathon Coach

I managed a 20 today - mostly flat along river  - slow start but picked up and some low 7s on second half and one sub-7.

First 18 in company and 18th mile was 7:20 but 19th on own 9:20!.

Felt ok most of run but seem to have hip flexor problem and struggled on any ups

[Deleted User]

Hi all, good to see everyone is running well and overcoming the dreaded lurgy, I have had a Great week of training, had an ok xc race yesterday in very very boggy muddy conditions, tried to pace evenly although it was a difficult course to gs tart off easy on as it narrowed massively through a gap in the hedge after about 300 meters, having run it before, I know that unless you bolt to the hedge, you end up waiting ages to get through. I managed a 97th placewhich was the best place I've got in the met league this year but not my quickest pace, perhaps the conditions or my big week of training were influencing this.

 

[Deleted User]

XC race



http://connect.garmin.com/activity/428465862

[Deleted User]

Had a good run today 16 miles. 8 miles at 7.45-8.00 then 8 miles at 6.45. Bit tough the last 3 miles and especially uphill with the wind in my face. Ran a bit later in the day with a hydration pack. No nutrition or juice, just water. Had a banana and weetabix 2 hours before heading out. Strong finish downhill though. Expected it to be tougher, Happy days

CC2 - Speedy Goth

Nice one Roger, I wouldn't fancy my chances on a run like that just yet. 

Steve, I definitely didn't start too fast. Too slowly if anything. Not knowing my fitness I started very conservatively and a clubmate I'm normally well ahead of was right on my heels. I left myself a bit too much to do. Another couple of kms (or one more big hill) and I might have been able to take a few more of the girls ahead, but I ran out of race.