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Simon Coaching - velloo
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DT, Sub-LT is roughly MP to HMP. See page 2 for velloo's paces.
velloo, the key goal with the recovery sessions is to get blood flowing and muscles loosened up without incurring further breakdown. The problem with doing much more than about 10 minutes is that you're not really recovering any more, you're training again, on what is supposed to be an active rest day. So, I'd argue it is worth getting changed for a 1 mile run, since that's the point of the session. If you feel you don't need the rest, then obviously doing more is fine.
1k reps came out a bit fast today, 6.34, 6.21, 6.34, 6.22, 6.20.(that's the pace in miles, so roughly 4mins per 1k) It wasn't intentional apart from the last 1k, think it was because I was on a track and it's so nice to run without people, dogs and cars getting in the way. Felt quite fresh, breathing was relaxed and 2mins recovery was just right, I slow jogged them because it was too cold to stand around.
Nice one, velloo. No problem with them being too fast since we were only keeping them slower to be cautious anyway. The recovery for cruise intervals should always be a jog anyway. At LT pace you shouldn't be gasping at the end of each rep.
Quick update; managed a whole week of training without breaking down!
This week is a tougher one with steady running, 800s and *shudder* 6m at sub L-T pace (07.10-06.45).
Yep, I reckon you're good for a slightly tougher week. It'll be interesting to see how you feel after the sub-LT run especially. They can look demanding on paper, but are excellent for boosting aerobic fitness and in my experience you can recover from them almost as quickly as you would from an easy-paced run.
The plan is to eventually build the length of these Sub-LT sections to about an hour (so about 10 miles) and they will form the bulk of a long run.
Had a really thorough sport massage last night and it's helped a lot, it's eased the tightness in my quad which was affecting my knee. Anyway the 800s.. there were 6 of them done at long interval pace which is around my 3k pace. The session was quite challenging and I felt pretty tired by the end. 6.01, 5.57, 5.56, 5.55, 6.00, 6.05. rest today
velloo, well done on the session. Good news that you are hitting the paces well despite recent problems.
Next week's interval session is almost the same thing, but slightly faster (short interval pace as opposed to long, so about 10 seconds/mile). There's the option of doing 5 instead of 6 if it's really tough, but I suspect that you'll have found you've picked up a little because of this week's session.
Sounds like you're a fan of the sports massage. Do you think that qualifies as "deep tissue"? I've heard mixed opinions about them and have never tried one myself.
Simon I just read back and noticed you had sartoris problem. II had that recently.
How long do you have the sub lt runs at?
Hope your sartorius is sorted spen71. This week's sub LT session is 2 miles easy 6 at sub LT which is in-between my marathon and half marathon pace, and then 2 miles easy.
There is no way I'll be able to hit the short interval pace for 5/6 800s unless the wind is behind me! But I'll give it a go...
Thanks velloo The sartorius is ok now
Your paces are similar to mine apart from that I do easy at abiut 9 45.
spen, yep the sartorius caused me a lot of grief. I had to stop completely for three weeks and it was another few weeks of low mileage before it healed completely. How long did you suffer for?
As velloo said, the next sub-LT run is six miles. I think these runs are good for up to about 60-70 minutes (although at this length the runs should be at the slower end of the pace bracket - so more like marathon pace or a bit slower). Beyond that they start to get quite fatiguing and recovery time increases.
You say your paces are similar to velloo's. Do you mean race times or training paces? Just curious because of your easy run pace.
velloo, if you're concerned then definitely stick to Long Interval pace. We're still testing the waters a bit after your injury and you can always pick it up for the last couple of reps if you're feeling particularly good (if it's possible to feel good during a VO2 session). Your training is going well at the moment, so no need to overdo things.
Race times and training paces. I choose to run slower on easy runs but then I do tend to run ultras so train in peak district.
Took a month off and a month of just easy running to sort mine
Wish it was that easy for the hip
Spen71 what's wrong with your hip? I've had issues with both of mine, lots of deep tissue massage, stretching and really monstering my glutes has helped.
This weeks sessions are 800 x 6 again, the rest is a mixture of easy runs and steady. Spen71 I don't bother about pace in my easy runs, just run what feels easy especially as I'll always encounter hills and 40 mile an hour headwinds at some point.
On the subject of easy runs I was reading in AW Dave Tune explain how he'd helped improve a very experienced and fast vet, he says the guy's easy running was 'too easy to be productive'. So maybe there is such a thing as going too slow..
Clicking hip syndrome, I know o need to work on my glutes. Get lazy with them
A weak arse is the worst thing a runner can have!
800s done. 3.04, 2.54, 2.57, 2.58, 3.03, 3.02. (time in minutes) It was a real struggle not to give up mid way through, especially after I ran 600m and realised I hadn't started my garmin. But I recovered quicky so maybe it's more mental than physical, i.e. I'm lazy.
spen, makes sense to run slower if it's ultras you're training for. I think something that's overlooked by people training for all distances is specificity. A classic example is with marathon training where people put a large emphasis on the long run and lots of mileage (both of which are obviously important), but don't do all that much running at marathon pace.
velloo, I absolutely agree that there is such a thing as going too slow. You've probably realised that I'm a big fan of the higher aerobic paces(what I call "steady" and "sub-LT"). I strongly believe that it's these that bring the biggest aerobic gains. I wouldn't recommend going out and doing these paces every day - they need to be buffered with slower, easier running, but I think they can be done regularly without bringing about too much fatigue.
Given recent injury woes and time off I suspect your current training paces are probably a little too fast at the moment. I considered modifying them, but given that I'm confident you'll get your fitness back quite quickly, I've instead just modified the some of the sessions slightly to allow for this (e.g. you'll notice I've switched Short Interval pace with Long Interval pace and switched Sub-LT with Steady this week)
Yes Simon I have noticed, taking me right out of my comfort zone! Felt surprisingly good during my easy run this morning, even with two blokes trying to race me. The wind is down to 22 mile an hour gusts tomorrow, at least it's not raining.
Yes I like the steady runs. Last one was 12 miles at 7 45 min miles. Tough but not too difficult to recover from.
Pleasant steady run this morning - but only 4 at pace and 3 easy. I've started running in the morning before work rather than after, not nice at first as I'm not a morning person. It's also a real struggle not to eat bacon rolls afterwards...
The good news is that the high aerobic paces usually start to feel a lot more comfortable the more you do them.
Nothing wrong with the odd bacon roll, as long as you have it with the proper sauce.
So this is the middle of week 4 and already the steady pace runs are feeling easier, these are not something I've done before so wasn't sure how I'd get on with them. Today was 4 miles at 7.17pace with a wu+cd, Wed 5 easy, Tue, 3 mile reps at approx 6.37 pace + wu+cd. I also feel leaner (my weight is unchanged so it's probably just in my head), hopefully this all means I'm getting fitter.
Getting a cold, it's the first one I've had for about a year so I've been pretty lucky.
Reps today were 8 x400s at short interval pace
. Actually managed to hit the paces which I wasn't expecting. Time in mins for the reps 1.23 1.23,1.24, 1.23, 1.26, 1.26,1.28, 1.25. roughly 5.53--5.34 min mile pace, recovery was 90secs.
Lurker alert.
Some good 400s there velloo, especially considering the pace you were doing 800s at!
Cheers Iron. I haven't got the hang of the track yet, I tend to start the reps too fast then get too tired to hit the pace. Obv 400s much easier as the rep is over before I exhaust myself!
The 800s session was a bit of a tough one, but I wanted to sharpen you up for the trail race at the weekend. As I mentioned before, post injury your paces may be a little slower than before, so no need to be worried about not quite hitting them. the fact that you're that close confirms that we don't need a major change and you're making a good comeback.
Great job with the 400s. Very impressed. How did you feel by the last one? If I had said you had to do four more (don't worry that's not your next session...) could you have?
Pacing on the track is something that gets easier with practice. If it's important (and it's probably not that important for a 10k runner) then doing 200s with lots of recovery as a semi-quality session is something I've found has helped in the past.
Are you looking at you watch as you run or just going out and seeing what happens?
Hope the cold doesn't grab hold of you too much. The rest of the week is just easy/steady running, but obviously rest up if your body tells you you need to.
Hi, Ironcat. Stay de-lurked!
Felt pretty tired all week 'cos of the cold, so lots of time spent drinking lemsips and a bit of slow running. Did the trail race this morning and the weather was awful, wet and windy and the course was very muddy. I wasn't going for a time just wanted a place and managed to do that, but was beaten into second place by a child!
Simon I try not to look at my watch too much on the track, I'll check on the first rep that I'm hitting the right time and try to keep the other reps at a similar pace/effort.
Real shame about the cold hitting just before the trail race, but great job on getting a placing.
I've put up training for the next couple of weeks. Given that you're racing on Saturday, this week has just one key session which is designed to help tune you in for the race:
2-3m warm up; 3 x 1 mile @ LT with 90" recovery; 5' jog; 800m hard; 1-2m cool down
There's no pace prescription for the 800m - just run at a good hard pace - maybe how would like to attack the last 800m of a 5 mile race.
Saturday's race should give us a good idea of current fitness. It's been a bit difficult to gauge recently post-injury, but you seem to have made a good comeback.
After that the following week is a tough one, with higher mileage, a pyramid interval session on the Tuesday, and a couple of runs with sections at Sub-LT pace. You seem to take to interval sessions really well, but I think Sub-LT pace is a bit of a weakness (I know you've also said you enjoy one and not the other).
In the coming weeks, the goal is not only to push up your VO2 max with the interval sessions, but to also get you running longish runs with significant chunks at Sub-LT. With these under the belt you should find yourself in an excellent position to really start attacking LT, and this is what will really help towards the goal of lowering the 10k time.
Regarding watch watching I think you're doing the right thing. It's worth sacrificing the occasional perfect rep time in order to develop a better pacing awareness.
Simon- where do you cross the line with sub Lt sections and a true quality session. If I were doing an intervals session as one quality, would say one 5 mile stint at sub Lt within a run be my weeks quota, or as its a lower pace effort, could I do two of those?
DT, I often use the concept of a semi-quality session and the shorter Sub-LT/Marathon paced runs fall under this heading. I definitely think you could get two of those in. In fact I wouldn't have thought there's a problem with including one short and one longish Sub-LT run.
In fact, that's almost what I have planned for velloo next week. The exact sessions are:
Q1: Intervals/Pyramid 400; 600; 800; 1000; 800; 600; 400;
Q2: 2 easy; 4-5m @ Sub-LT; 1 easy
Q3: 2 easy; 4 steady; 1 easy; 3-4 @ Sub-LT; 1 easy
And in 3-4 weeks that entire middle section of Q3 might be replaced by 9 @ Sub-LT.
That's a nasty week Simon! I'm going to swap the days about a bit because of work but I will do all the sessions barring sudden death.
Today's 3x1 mile at LT felt much better than I expected, I was having a hard time getting going during the warm-up, but once I started the reps things clicked into place.
DT Initially I thought 3 'quality-ish' sessions would knacker me out, but they don't and I'm quite a lazy runner who'll plod around at 9min mile pace given half the chance.