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Hard Marathon Training with Mike Gratton
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anyone got any good ideas on training/racing hybrid shoes? I have some very lightweight Asics at the moment. (Speedstars I think), but want a more cushioning and not too much weight.
Need to be neutral or slight pronation control. Mizuno would do, so would New Balance and Nike...think Adidas tend to be too narrow.
Good luck in Frankfurt Lord D.
A mile-stone for me - ran 10.2 (flat) miles on Sunday, along the Towpath from Hampton Court to Teddington. On the way back I was overtaken by runners (including some of my faster club-mates) in the midst of the Kingston 16. Their company meant I average 7:55 pace for my long run! It is amazing how quickly one notices one's fitness coming back. A month ago, a 3.5 mile run resulted in serious DOMS 2 days later. Now 10 seems OK. Think I'll stick at 10 for a couple of weeks though. No races entered to worry about yet.
I've no idea about running shoes - might be worth trying the sub-3 thread - there are a couple of shoe experts who post there.
I did the jog shop jog (a very hilly 20 miler) in 2:41 yesterday - 5 mins faster than a couple of years ago. The results aren't out yet but I think it was quick enough to get me into the top 20 (its a very small field!). That's my last long run before Beachy Head marathon in 10 days time.
LD couple of shoes I've been very pleased with - Mixuno Wave Riders which are neutral and cushioned but not tooo heavy and Mizuno Wave Elixir which is similar but much lighter. The Elixirs I would think are rather like Asics DS trainers but I don't run in Asics as they blister me and so haven't tried the DSs.
Final countdown to Amsterdam for me. Not really feeling up for it. If I go sub 3.15 I think I'll have done well. Feeling a bit half-hearted with it to be honest. Wonder if it's just a phase I'm going through or have me and the marathon fallen out of love? Maybe we need something to liven our relationship up!!
Welll done Sam!
My knee has been OK - well until I came off my bike on Westminster Bridge today on the way to work. There's a lot of gravel in the wound, so I hope it will be OK. But I seem to have broken my texting thumb!
LD. Mizuno work for me....good luck in Frankfurt
Eb...perhaps you just need a good run, the advice Mike gave me before my pb was "just take it easy to 10miles and then see how you feel". it might work for you too, anyhow have a good run.
Sam another good luck for Beachy Head
and finally SC, you say you've hurt your texting thumb, well at least you've still got one
Cutlers relays, very low key, in fact a bit disappointing with only 20 teams entered, we managed to win the vets race, but there were only 3 teams in it.
Thanks Tony - that might be a plan worth following and maybe could lead to a decent second half, even if I can't pb, a strong second half and negative split would be a fine thing.
SC don't pick that scab!
Greetings Blue here,
Good to read the thread picking up again, inspiring reading from you all.
After moving house and squeezing a disc, lifting a sofa, a big one honest, I have not run anywhere since the end of July. I can cycle and have been enjoying the off road routes in the Southern Highlands, red squirrel central, a real wildlife haven, even saw a pine martin a few nights ago.
Going for some physio soon so should be back running in time for the snow, wind and rain.
regards
Blue
Eb - thanks for the shoe info. The question is...can I be bothered to run in anything other than my Wave Riders, or do I throw out my orthotics for the race (which I've done before - and got a good PB)????:-
On the assumption that 25g weight loss saves 1 sec/mile:-
My Wave Riders are (suppsedly) 320g
Wave Elexir are 290g (and supposed to be supportive, not cushioned shoes - I want cushioning!))
Wave Precision are 280g (cushioned)
I reckon I'd gain about 30 secs with the Elxir, 40 secs with the Precision over 26 miles.
Although, weighing my existing Mizunos, they are actually 80g more than advrertised (OK, I have big feet) but Asics only seem to weigh about 50g more than advertised!! ie, my Wave Riders are actually 400g.
Asics Speedstars are advertised at 278g, actual weight is 320g. They should bring me an 80-90 sec gain...and they do feel light, but I really think they are just too damned unprotective for my old legs. So, really, the Precision looks like my best bet - but is it really worth it?
Not sure exactly how much my orthotics weigh, but maybe not using these is my best ploy. Only 26 miles...what effect would one run without them have? I did this for London two years ago...PB, great run etc but my legs never felt worse than after this race. No idea whether ortotics would have made any difference.
Start Fitness sell them for £39.99. Good hunting.
Dids
with the amount of injuries yuo've had over the last couple of years I think that it makes sense to run in your Mizuno's with the orthotics, that way you are erring on the side of caution and at the same time you can justify that, because you will be able to conduct an experiment as to whether a few grams here and there does actually make the difference as the experts reckon.
Good luck in Frankfurt Dids. I ran it in 2001. They print your name on your number an d people shout it as you run past. It was especially good for me especially with my German name.
I wear Mizuno Elixirs with orthotics, and wish I wore them in the Sydney marathon. I wore a pair of Brooks Hyperion racers - great for 10k's but not enough protection, especially in the last 6 miles.
My legs were shot and my feet very sore.
Martin Mcarthy 2hr 11 min marathon runner in 1983 always thought that unless you are biomechanically perfect you are better off with a racer / trainer than a pure racer, and that was what he wore.
If you were too lightweight shoes I feel you lose more time in the last 6 miles than you gain early on, and that was what happened to me in Sydney.
Dids I have worn racers for 3 out of my 6 (yes really, only 6) marathons and always felt I ran faster in them. But I have always had to put up with injury post-marathon. But then I did when I didn't wear racers. After my first marathon in Glasgow in 1984 (3;22), run in a pair of Reebok "Aztecs" bought by Mail order from Ron Hill's shop in Cheshire, I had several weeks off with achilles tendon problems. And the same after every marathon ever done.
But if you are unsure, i would compromise and wear a racer-trainer, like the "Precision" (which is what I always used to use for training before advised to buy an anti-pronation shoe.
As for me, I am gradually increasing my training - a whole 27 miles last week, which I understand is one mile more than Posh Spice, whom we are informed by a celeb rag coverline "Runs a Marathon a Week!", with the inference that this is somehow odd, or obsessive.
10 miles for me around Southwold this morning - it was gorgeous, high cloudbase weather, ideal for these wide flat lands.Only 3 other runners spotted, all slower even than my pathetic 8:30 pace. Saw seagulls, egrets, marsh harriers hovering, cows cud-chewing, and a few fishing boats. Second 10-miler now in my comeback. Perhaps 11 next week?
11 next week for sure...
A very boring flat 10M for me this morning- into quite a stiff breeze on the way back, so it felt rather more effortful than I'd have liked considering the overall 8:18 pace. A 30 min runs with a few strides on tuesday, and then nothing but the odd jog to stop things seizing up until beachy head on saturday.
A flying visit from me - I seem to be getting bogged down in work, but I dont' see why I shouldn't keep popping into the forum now and then.
The training is going well, although I've been running tired for a few weeks and am missing the opportunity to test myself in races (such as the Solent Half last week where I couldn't get my HR above 135bpm, having run XC the day before, and the Bells of Pattingham yesterday where I could even manage mara HR for 7 miles). Still, it is now looking hopeful that I can dip under 1:30 at Gosport, after I was able to run a tempo run on Friday sub-7:00/mile (but only just) for a HR of only 147-148bpm, so the 6:52/mile should be doable if I can keep 150bpm going for 13 miles, which in theory I can. I just need to get the taper right - the schedule I'm following seems to have some fairly hard running in the last week and although the mileage drops, I'm not convinced it tapers enough to revive me sufficiently.
All this is quite important as I have now received my official FLM rejection letter - this year 3:15:18 is not enough to get in. Quote: "you may feel we are being harsh". !!!
Incidentally, despite my initial pleas, they haven't offered me a GFA place, so if I fail on Nov 16th, I won't have an FLM place at all, unless I can convince them that that really is being harsh!
Lochaber anyone?
I ran in the Leicester HM yesterday, pacing our top lady runner to an impressive 1:26:58 and 4th lady and 1st in her category, she is going to be running FLM next year so I am hoping that she will produce a great result, she certainly has a lot of potential. We also had a senior male in 5th place pb'ing in 1:14:28 so he has now got a Q time for the championship start if he's not too late.
Whilst I'm bragging about my club, our top senior vet had his marathon debut in Amsterdam yesterday finishing in 31st place overall, 28th in category in a very creditable time of 2:29:29. I don't know what his plans are for the future but I hope he decides to do FLM.
We finished off a great day with the news that my Brother in law is up and walking just 36 hours after open heart surgery for a leaky valve, which in my humble opinion is probably the performance of the week!!!!!
In the evening we went to see Queen and Paul Rodgers at Sheffield and they were in fine form too.
Back down to reality now though with building up some serious mileage (well for me anyway) and a week of nights to look forward to.
Susie...I'll keep my fingers crossed for you that Mr Bedford sees sense and gives you that starting position.
Susie,
a great idea, but I think my better half would think it not quite so good, especially as the ladies on the champs starts all have good figures
but good look at Gosport, you know that you can do it.........6:30 pace should be a doddle for you
I'd love 6:30 pace Tony, but that won't happen!
The trouble is, I know exactly what pace I'm capable of from my training data. I went into FLM2008 knowing that I was just about capable of 3:15, and got 3:15:18. I go into Gosport knowing I'm just about capable of 1:30...
I think there's a touch of psychology there, and I need to be far more positive, but the raw facts are that 1:30 will be very tough, but hopefully doable.
Mind you, I still have 2+ weeks of hard training. Hopefully the taper will then perform miracles on my pace.
...and I need to make sure I get the taper right!
A new milestone for me: 30.5 miles in total last week, which given my training diary records "3.5 tentative miles" and then serious DOMS 2 days later on Sunday Sept 14th, my first run since May 28th, marks slow but encouraging progress for me. And my ITB seems OK. Oh, and I also joined in my coached threshold session on Tuesday with 6 x 1k at threshold pace off 60 sec recoveries. It's just a shame my threshold pace seems now to have slowed to about 7:30-7:40 per mile. In 2006 it was about 6:20 pace. Oh well, at least I am running - and biking - and that makes me happy.
And I still have that GFA place at London this year. I am wondering if I will take it up....
You know you want to S-C! Maybe with a long slow build up you'll be in better shape and won't get left with a long recovery? One can hope.
Training went well for me last night: 2x2k at 6:50 pace, 2x 1mile at 6:36, 1k at 6:25 pace and an 800m which started off at 6:00 pace but ended up also at 6:25 pace. All off 2min recoveries.
My fitness is definitely coming on, but yet again I got bad calf cramp in bed which robbed me of a few hours sleep - every time I nodded off my legs would lock up and I'd be bolt upright trying to ease them off. Maybe dehydration, but perhaps more likely a lack of salt, as I don't have much, if any, added salt in my diet.
Legs felt OK for this morning's recovery run, so no ill effects other than feeling a bit tired.
Eb,
3:12 seems pretty sharp to me, especially as you were not training specifically for that distance. The half i/m would not have had nearly enough endurance training. But surely it is the travelling rather than the arriving which makes or brakes the experience. It is easier for me to take this stand point as I will never get anywhere 3:12.
I have run similar times in marathons and had both fantastic uplifting experiences, (Lochaber, 2006) and the exact opposite (London, 2005). It is just experience to put into the bank for later in races and life in general.
Last night I was out and heard some roe deer rutting, I also stopped to watch a pine martin feeding at a local nature reserve, now that for me put a bigger smile on my face than any time would have done.
WS - should you wish to travel north and run Lochaber then you would be most welcome and I can recommend the course, views and almost everything else about it.
Blue
Susie - my spirit is willing, but my old bones are weak! I have been at the hosital today to get a radio isotope injected in my veins, and then a nuclear magnetic resonance imaging scan 3 hours later. The pain consultant who is treating my arthritis/sciatica in my back looked at my MRI scan (which shows the artthritic changes) and said my bones looked rather thin, so she has sent me for bone-scanning which is what I had today. I would have thought osteoporosis unlikely however, given all the exercise I do and the ice-cream I eat! But I do have one risk-factor - I was treated for anorexia nervosa in my early 20s and stopped menstruating for about 3 years. That was in my smoking days. Now of course I have exercise nervosa! And I have broken lots of bones (in hands, wrists and feet) in various falls over the last 10 years. But we'll just have to await the scan results. Sorry, that was probably TMI!
Your continuing calf cramps are worrying. I recommended an athlete of mine (black, male) who suffers to eat crisps once a day or something else salty. That seems to have helped him. The medical advice I have heard given to hard-training people is not to cut back on salt in diet. Monitor your blood pressure if you are worried, and only cut back if it is too high. You may also be a "salty-sweater" and need more salt than average. Anyway, it's worth a trial period I would have thought.
Blue - loved your post: helps to put everything in perspective - our resident philosopher!
I don't know about many of the other hard-trainers, but I know I feel happier with running in my life, much happier, even if I am not running to a high standard, the routine of running makes me feel that all is well in my world. But focusing very hard on performance has downsides - it makes one a bit self-obsessed and boring to others, and it can put strains on relationships with non-runners. One of the things I get out of coaching is that it helps to reduce the obsession with how my own running is going and helps me think more about others and how to help them. So even during my 4 months out with injury, I was still coaching twice a week and via e-mail and text, and sharing others' running highs and lows. It stopped me going completely insane, so I am very grateful people want me to coach them.