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Sub 3:00 FLM 2006
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Given that the 160 and 165 runs will be pretty close and eventually will be marathon pace, what value will speedwork bring ? Will it :
a) increase my pace at lower HRs ? If so how ?
b) decrease my HR drift at 165-168 ? If so how ?
c) make me faster in the last 10k when I will be running increasingly anaerobicly (is there such a word) ?
I do 15x400, which is all from Mike Gratton's schedule. It's thanks to MG and his advice that I made the progress I did in the last year or so.
70 miles a week will I'm sure give you the extra endurance to do that sub 2:45 marathon.
Cartman, I believe Luton is 4 laps, but I'm not sure what the couse is like.
Isn't 12-15 miles of 'effort' a little much?
My understanding of speedwork for the marathon is to:-
a)develop smoother/efficient running
b)develop the ability to handle anaerobic work so that at the end of the marathon when the slow twitch muscles tire the body can call on the fast twitch
c)improve pace at cruising speed
I'm sure theres more to it, but I'm not very scientific about these things:o)
I should have said the 12-15miles includes 1-2 mile warm up and warm down... Typically I'd do either 3 or 4 reps of 5k recording any change in pace from rep to rep. so the whole lot isn't really effort.
I'm sure this track session is the reason behind my improvement. Annoyingly I'm not going to have a chance to race over 10km before Berlin, so I can't really comment on the endurance effects, but over the last week, I've generally been under 6 mins for each racing mile and it's starting to feel more like cruising.
Last night I managed the 3.5 miler in 19:57 - another 40 seconds off my PB in a month - this time averaging 5:42m/M and racing against people the I used to watch disappear into the distance!
I'm now really looking forward to the 10km of the London triathlon on Sunday - just a shame I'll have to swim / cycle first!
Cartman, I guessed it would be something like that, but thought I'd ask:o) What kind of pace would you be doing for 3-4 reps of 5km?
JEJ, how many reps do you do of each of those distances and how much did you drop your mileage by?
Also, did you just drop the mileage for the races or to do faster track work?
I'd probably be doing them between 7:10 min/mile and 6:40 min/mile pace, i.e. close to target marathon pace. From about 8 weeks before the marathon I'd be doing them at the HR I intend to use in the race itself (am guessing at 168 at the minute).
Should have also mentioned, I do through in 1 or 2 sets of short fast hills reps each week to keep the fast twitch active and get the heart going.
I'm really interested to know if anybody has seen improvement at "lower" HRs, i.e < 87% Max) through the use of speedwork. I have no doubt that speedwork will help make higher HRs feel more comfy, but for marathons I always thought it was about getting the most out of your lower HRs (i.e. the aerobic system).
i had a calf problem like this 3 years ago, and tennis will really aggravate it. i cycled 10 or 20 miles a day and also did some swimming to retain some cardio vascular fitness. Then on rehab, when the calf pain had gone i built the muscle up again with 5 min jog, and the next day 10 mins and so on. But cycling and swimming will maintain a good level of fitness, without straining the calf. Dont worry you will be fine for 2006 !
For someone like me who has still not cracked 40mins for 10k yet your times are quite frightening Nigel. I do very little speedwork as I have run 5 marathons in the last 15 months, and generally find that I'm too knackered to fit in speedwork. The thought of 24X 200m fills me with horror.
Had a lovely run in the rain to work in Central London this morning for the first time ever. The 13miles took my mileage for the week up to 62 with Saturday still to go. I'll increase that to over 70mpw through the next 6 weeks and then start my taper for Cardiff in October.
All pretty much dross running, with the odd race thrown in to sharpen me up. Perhaps not the perfect preparation, but the best I can do with a full time job and a young family.
On being iiritable when not running. I'm more irritable all the time after taking up running. When I was fat I was a jolly Mr Blobby, after losing weight (3st) via excercise I've turned into a bit of a monster, I lose my rag with everyone all the time. Must be something to do with my tetesterone levels or something.
JEJ-Good luck in the Tri!
Finally my sources tell me that the Luton marathon is quite hilly. Not a course I would attempt.
Mile HR
1&2-14:29 147
3-7:08 147
4-7:01 147
5-7:01 151
6-6:57 154
7-6:34 156
8-6:56 156
9-7:00 156
10&11-13:16 156
12-6:45 156
13-6:51 156
14-6:35 156
15&16-13:91 155
17-6:39 156
18-6:40 156
19-6:50 156
20-6:33 156 finsih 2:16:41 average heart rate 77%WHR.
yes, track sessions are a bit daunting at first, but trying to work those fast twitch muscles is very important, and the feeling is great when the sessions over.good luck at cardiff, you will do well.
Last week I got to the track and had a real mental battle with myself to keep going. I made a deal with my negative mind that if I went outside a certain time for the 400's I'd call it a day, but I never like defeat much, so I made sure they stayed inside the time:o)
I remember you posting those splits vs. heart when you did that race and being very jealous at the pace vs. HR and the complete lack of drift !!! I remember seeing those and thinking you were definitely on for a sub 3:00.. Keeping sub 6:52 pace at such a low HR (relative to ~87% Max which I believe is as high as "normal" people can still be 100% aerobic)
I'm not sure I will do any speedwork (apart from my short hill reps), i think its safer for me at least (to avoid injury) to keep plugging away at my marathon and 75% HR and eek out improvements there. I haven't been injured though running for 18 months and that is primarily due to me not doing speedwork or 5k pace runs..
12 x 400 with 45sec recovery + 4 x 200
6 x 600, 4 x 400 with 90sec recovery for the 6's, 60sec for the 4's, then 4 x 200
800, 600, 400 x 3 (recoveries 90, 60, 1 lap) then 4 x 200
The only downside is that I'm right in the middle of the two groups - group 2 contains a 2:33 marathon runner and a couple of 16ish min 5km runners. I can keep up for the first half, but really suffer the next day. The second group is normally 3 secs per lap behind me so there's not too much to push me. I normally set off with group 1, then latch onto the faster guys as they overtake - I have the speed to match them over the last 200m (and generally win at least one of the sprints at the end) so I guess I get the best of both worlds without killing myself completely.
I find that it takes a while longer to recover after a session including any 800's - the 4's and 6's don't take too much out of me.
My mileage the week before last was just short of 100. On the track day, I'd do a 5 mile recovery run at lunch, then run about 3 miles to the track, complete about 4 - 5 miles on the track and then jog home - makes it a tough session, but I think it helps with the recovery.
With regular races from last Thursday, on schedule has been:
W: 5 miles slow
T: 5 mile race, 4 mile warm up/down
F: Rest! (first time in ages)
S: Steeplechase with 3 mile warm up/down
S: 10km race with 5 mile warm up/down
M: 2 x recovery = 11 miles
T: 5 miles recovery, 4 miles track with 6 miles 'commute'
W: 5 miles recovery
T: 3.5 mile race with 3 mile warm up/down
total in 8 days = 67.5 but much of that was at an intense pace
Today: pub sounds appealing!!!
After the London tri, I'll be back up to 90+ miles of slower running - I figure I've got more than enough pace, just need to make sure the endurance is there to go sub 3...
Injury fears in one reason I don't push my luck too much on the track doing speedwork.
Early last year my hamstring went on a simple 10 mile training run on a flat road at the 2 mile point for no apparent reason. It wasn't a serious injury, but whizzing around doing anything like 200m or even 400m reps when my legs are as dodgy as that would be lunacy.
It's a pity really because for my age I'm probably better as a sprinter/middle distance runner, but marathon running is the safer option.
Not many in December in the UK you'll find
I'm doing Cardiff in early Oct....flat as a pancake, but may be a little too soon for you.
Over the winter you tend to have to go abroad to find a marathon to run
In December Lanzarote,Majorca,Jamaica,Barbados,Lisbon etc etc
I guess from the location that Barbados would be the flattest. Pretty low as well as it costs a fortune to get there.
Air fares as reasonable as possible if you treat it as a holiday, and, oh waffle waffle....
might just give luton a shot anyway... I might get another shot in April, but won't be able to taper for that, or get as many work sessions in...
My club does not do track sessions as they are a road club and they very rarely do 'proper' structured speed sessions, so when I go I use club night as a hard run by trying to front run with the faster guys as much as possible.
DN and Cartman, I definitely think it's speedwork that brings on injuries, so if you can get away with reaching your goal without or with little I don't blame you!
Having just upped my milage and trg lately my shins are killing me again, just like they did about 12 months ago when i started running. So i had a night off tonight, long run tomorrow, might go for 16 miles, longest since FLM!
I'd suggest that the main focus would be on the long range runs. 1 per week. I alternate between a 20 and a 14. Using a long enough prog for FLM, that starts Christmas, to get say 6x 20s in.
I'm currently looking at Cardiff (Oct) which has let me get a few "warm up" 20 milers at slow pace, and now to start a bit more on the focussed and pacey 20's.
Midweek just adds miles to the tally, maybe with a midweek pace/race sesh.
Er, that's it.
Re Race-the Train : You'll need to run out at a fastish pace to the turn- around as the second half climbs up narrow sheep-tracks which in places make overtaking risky.
I wore fell shoes which were light but gave me enough grip uphill and over the boggy bits.