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Flirty women are blamed for rape

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    About the martial arts thing,

    Women IN GENERAL are smaller , weaker and less aggressive than men.

    For a woman to defeat a man in unarmed combat the differential in skill must be immense in order to overcome the physical differences.

    I accept that some knowledge and skill is better than none at all but I also think there is the danger that some training may lull women into a flse sense of security as to their real ability in defending themselves.

    I did judo for 20 years at a fairly high level and I RARELY witnessed a woman who was able to defeat a man.

    The best advice I can give is to kick him hard where it hurts and run like hell. Make sure you are wearing footwear which does not impede your ability to run.

    I am now cowering behind the filing cabinet in anticipation of the indignant responses.
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    PB- the filing cabinet is smaller, weaker and less aggressive than you.

    I do actually think that as a whole women who have done some at least some martial arts training (some taewondo in my case, years ago) tend to be realistic about their chances in this case. Even male world champions can get mugged or whatever if totally taken by surprise.
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    moomoo what you say is true and I am guilty of such over confidence myself.

    I do walk through Bradford in the early hours with no fear at all but I am shockingly vulnerable.

    There is still a caveman deep inside me :))

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    Oo-er Pudsey.

    Now that IS unlucky.
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    JjJj ✭✭✭
    roflol chimp!

    ¦'oD
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    well Pudsey looks pretty happy about it!
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    Dr Nic, your attitude is brave rather than naive.

    It is true that we are all vulnerable however big and strong we are (I remember Dean Macey getting mugged, he's 6 ft 5 and must be as powerful as anyone), and I personally would avoid walking alone in some places in London late at night. But that sort of slight modification of your lifestyle is nothing like what Dr Nic is talking about.

    Rather than martial arts training or whatever (although that's probably good for self-confidence generally), wouldn't it be better if women were allowed to carry some sort of incapacitating weapon, like CS gas spray, that can be used easily?
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    I see a problem with women being allowed to carry such weapons but not men. And any self-defence weapon can be taken off you and used against you.

    Unfortunately.
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    If DG is right that in 85% of cases the assailant is someone the woman already knows(which is born out by the experience of some of us on here) then you are hardly going to be prepared with your weapon of choice are you?
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    As the thread seems to have moved on a bit - on the point of people turning a blind eye to things. A woman was raped in an alley under a mate of mines flat. Effectively it happened about 6 feet from his window and he was woken by the screaming. This carried on for several minutes. He was quite honest in saying he was too scared to do anything for a bit, afterwards he did go to the flat upstairs as he assumed the noise was coming from there. Basically there are about a dozen or more flats there and every one of them would have been woken by this attack but not one person came out to see what happened and even after the event only one dared to open their door. This is city centre Nottingham. It would only have taken one person to come out to stop that attack - it's a terrible indictment of modern society.
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    Its probably quite difficult to know how you'd react in that sort of situation. I remember a WREN being attacked on a base I was on once, the guy was armed with a Browning .38 which he held to the girls head. Bearing in mind he was out of his head on something he was just about liable to do anything. It took a very courageous Marine Redcap to disarm him.

    Hasten to add that the young lady was terrified but unharmed, which is more than I suspect one could say for the snotty once the MPs had him in the guardroom....
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    I second what's been said about self-defence. I'm 5'2", weigh around 50kg and discovered in my self-defence classes that if my attacker is taller than about 5'8" or weighs more than about 65kg I'm pretty helpless. Also, it can be hard to keep a clear head when you're being assaulted, sexually or otherwise.

    JFB - I haven't re-read DPP v Morgan in a while (don't practise criminal law), but surely, as the evidential burden to prove that the belief, however unreasonable, was genuinely held by the defendant, rests on D, the more unreasonable the belief, the less likely it is that it could have been held at all? OK, so it's only balance of probs rather than beyond reasonable doubt for the defence, but it's not as simple as D simply saying "well, I thought no meant yes". Is it??? (Question, not statement...)
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    Jools - self defence in those cases isn't about any sort of skill or martial arts training, it's about having enough aggression to be willing to bite someones nose off, or whatever's to hand. If you, at that moment, are unwilling to kill to escape, then the hesitation will stop possibly your only chance.

    Case in point - an 80year old was recently mugged by 3 teenagers somewhere up in North Scotland (unfortunately I don't have a link). What they didn't know was that he was a commando during the war, and he hospitalised 2 of them. I seriously doubt that was to do with skill, and was more to do with the 'red mist' descending. The commando unarmed combat training was mainly based on use whatever's to hand as a weapon, and be as violent as possible.

    In my opinion, of course.
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    On a lighter note the best form of defence is to 'run' so think about the benefit of being a faster runner next time you don't fancy your speed session at the track ;-)
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    Anyone seen Peckinpah's Cross of Iron? I think that's what it was called. It has a scene in which a woman is attacked by a soldier - and she fights back with intent.

    Perhaps "bites back" is closer to the mark.

    The type of scene that leads to the gents collectively crossing their legs.
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    I am worried that this is another way of making women feel to blame - i.e they should have fought harder.
    I think I read somewhere that the police advise women not to fight. Not sure though.
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    - Kick 'em in the gonads
    - Kick 'em on the shin
    - Poke them in the eyes (gouge if possible)

    Best places really. I wouldn't stop there, either, I'd jump on their damn heads.
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    LL I suppose different people will react in different ways to an attack. I'd like to think that I'd turn into the incredible hulk and make the guy wish he'd never met such a mad woman (must admit a few men in my past have come to this conclusion;-) but in reality when fear sets in who knows?

    B I love your 'best places' to attack I'll pop them on my list of 'to do's' if faced with danger!

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    Having faced a rather unpleasant incident last year where some drunk blokes (4 of them, early 20's) tried to grab me when i was running, i actually found that having been trained in non-violent direct action, and in what's euphemistically called 'control and restraint' when working on a psychiatric ward, was more help than a few years of judo and karate, 'cos it meant i was thinking about how to get away rather than hurt them. i'm not sure if the same would have applied if they were sober and / or more determined rather than opportunistically 'having a go', but knowing how to be very difficult to keep hold of was very useful in that situation.
    A lot of practice so i did not really have to think about what i was doing, and having been very used to fights at school, meant i was not panicking at the time.
    As my karate teacher used to say, the best form of self-defence is running away.
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    I saw that Chris Ryan thing about personal safety a few months ago & think that everyone should be forced to watch it.

    Can't remember if it was the 'How not to die' series or 'Terror Alert' or another. But he showed how easy if was for someone to be attacked & how the normal methods of defence may not work. Even volunteers expecting to be attacked were taken by surprise.

    I think a lot of women/men think that it'll never happen to them, & if it did they could get away.

    There was also a section on how to get rid of aggressive people when you're out drinking. Absolutely invaluable.
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    You talkin' to me ya bassa? <hic!>
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    But Chris Ryan is full of sh*t.

    Listen here why I terrify you all to death so you can then go out and buy one of my books/videos/key rings/blow-up dolls.

    That's Chris Ryan that is.
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    That's how some of them are (he does over-dramatise) but this was much more practical.
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    The very vast majority of rapes are carried out by relatives/ friends/ trusted people, in brief, in a situation where self defence has hardly any place, and the victim has hardly ever any chance foe escaping or fighting back.
    Therefore, all that S**t about dressing/ behaving/ being a slim blonde / alcohol while out... has No link whatsoever with sexual assault!
    Easy explanations are comfortable and comforting, but that is totally missing the point!
    It has no other purpose than entertaining people, and criticising some other people, who are badly infringed in their right to freedom!!!
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    Are you sure about that?

    "The very vast majority" gives no indication of proportions, and that is assuming that all rapes are reported.

    In any case, attacks by strangers still do happen, and it would take a moron to go out taking needless risks.
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    Indeed it does not give any proportion, and surely they are even less likely to be reported! I haven't got any source in mind but I will find one ( there are many people who undertakes counselling because of the long standing effects of sexual abuse, but those abuses have not been officially reported, and won't appear into the figures!)
    That does not deny the attacks by strangers, and I do not encourage anyone to take any useless risk!
    But I find absolutly horrifying that it can even be hinder that the victim has some responsability !
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    I think the viewpoints on this thread may also partly depend on whether or not the poster has experience of being in such a terrible situation
    I for one find it very hard to be objective about this
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    Me too, Hippo.
    I've just done a bit of googling and there are plenty of rape support group websites with info if you are interested, B(EM).
    Apparently the most common place for a woman to be raped or sexually assaulted is in her own home. And yes, the perpetrator is more likely than not to be someone she knows. So be careful when you are out, of course, and don't walk alone down any dark alleys but remember that is not the reality of rape or sexual assault in most cases, its just the ones you hear about more in the press.
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    yes and i still think it was my fault

    anyway


    maybe ill break a rule and do some speedwork
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