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Marathon on 3 runs per week.
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Whether the recovery is a specified time or distance; here is what I do for the recovery:
I walk 50m, then alternate walking 50m and easy jogging for 50m for the specified time or distance.
No I haven't seen the rest distances/times written down anywhere so I'm making my own up.
Usually I get bored doing recoveries that slowly: my 800 recoveries are often 400 metres in 2:10-ish rather than 3:40-ish.
BTW I am aware that the Yassos build up to 10 of the b*ggers. I have done that for practically every marathon I've run. And indeed for many half marathons.
It was quite comforting to read your comments, Luc, but I didn't understand your figure of 3.33 to 3.38 - shouldn't it be 3.03 to 3.06?
I now have an important question (important to me, certainly). On Friday, I have to do a 7 mile tempo run. The excellent spreadsheet supplied by Sean, I think, says this run should be at 7.11 to 7.16. However, doesn't this run count as a long tempo run (week 1, 3 miles - short, week 2 5 miles - mid). If it does, count as the long run it should be 7.26 to 7.31.
The reason this is important to me is that I may be able to complete it at 7.31 but I'm sure I won't manage at 7.16
Any comments, please, anyone?
PS It's only this thread that is enabling me to keep on the course.
1) I think you may be right about Luc's rep splits. He must have miscalculated or mistimed.
2) Re tempo run: I am also confused. For me it means 7 miles at 10 - 20 secs over 10 k pace. But maybe that's OK.
I think Luc wrote 33-38 instead of 03-08 ...
Mid tempo runs 4 & 5 miles
Long tempo runs 7, 8 & 10 miles
Is that what everyone else is doing? The only doubt I can see is with the 4 & 7 mile runs.
Anyway done a 3 mile tempo this evening bang on target at 6:30. Wish I could do the interval times instead of lagging 10 to 19 seconds behind on my last 3x1600s (1 at 6:00 and 2 at 6:09).
Using the spreadsheet I see the 3&4 and then the 5&7 mile tempo's have the same times. That does make the 7 mile run fairly testing based on our 10K times but I suppose that's what this programme is designed to do.
For me the big difference in the FIRST plan over most others is the faster pace of the long run. I think this makes some sense (but maybe not for first-timers)...was it Emil Zatopek who said "why would I want to run slowly..I know how to do that already!"
We have the same 10K time. I have decided that the 7m tempo run is a long tempo run and will be adding about 35 seconds to my 10k mile pace. This gives me seven 7.30/mile miles to run. I think it will be very challenging, but I think I have a chance. Best of luck, I will be interested in knowing how you get on.
Just out of interest, what is your marathon PB to date and what are you trying to get down to this year?
sorry for this slow feedback about training paces, and for rather a long post. I actually had a very quick reply from Bill Pierce at the Furman Institute [the organisation behind the 3-day-a-week FIRST programme], but I had meant to spend a bit of time editing it and clarifying it with him. As it is, here's a briefly edited version. I hope it accurately reflects what he meant...
Bill says:
We have not been able to identify one single variable to determine precisely the optimal training paces, but 10K was a good approximation, especially for a magazine article with a broad audience. In our training studies, we use multiple variables to determine the training paces for the runners who are on test. Those variables include race times, treadmill times, and lab data at a variety of distances. Using the multiple variables, we are able to look for consistency in the predictive value of each variable. For some runners, the variables predict similar paces, for others, there are disparities.
For example, some runners' race times at 5K predict accurately their marathon time or vice-versa. However, for others there are considerable qualitative differences in their performance times at different distances. When we're coaching runners one-to-one, that's when we have to make judgments in adjusting the target training paces. Also, after each week we review their workout times and reported perceived exertion and make appropriate adjustments. We need the workouts to be challenging, but not so exhausting as to prevent recovery for the next key workout. That ongoing adjustment is clearly one of the luxuries of having a coach.
There is both an art and science to training. We believe that our science is good, but not complete. Runners differ. In particular, we find that females and older runners have difficulty meeting the track paces and the younger, inexperienced runners have more difficulty with the tempo and long run paces, but they can run the track paces faster than what is recommended. That's why one formula does not fit all.
Another factor that limits the precision of using only a single variable -- the 10K time -- for determining all training paces is that runners often report their personal best time as their 10K time. That best time run on a fast course with ideal running conditions, at the peak of conditioning, does not necessarily provide a good representation of the runner's fitness level.
That said, most runners find that they only need to adjust the target paces by a few seconds to meet the criteria that we describe on our website.
Here's how to know how much to adjust your training paces: your times for your speedwork intervals should vary by no more than a couple of sessions across a session. After each week, you can adjust your target training times based on your most recent training performance. We attempt to find target paces that are realistic and challenging, but not so difficult that the runner is unable to recover for your next run session. By insisting that the entire set of repeats be run with a range of only a couple of seconds, it pretty much ensures that the runner isn't overdoing it.
I hope the above response helps to clarify for the runners how to use the target paces. Best regards, Bill
Unless you can answer, Scott? [Scott is from the Furman Institute] Scott, the RW schedules didn't give recovery times in interval sessions, so we need a simple rule.
Meanwhile, continued good luck to everyone who's training. Mine's going well; I can't decide whether I should be basing the training on a 43-min 10K or a 40-min... I think I'm like one of the younger, inexperienced runners that Bill mentions above [if only, Bill] who does okay on the track but needs to discover a bit of speed endurance...
Loving the variety of the running and cross-training so far, though. How intense are people's cross-training sessions, by the way? I'm mainly doing bike intervals around threshold heart rate, with 20-25 mins of effort per session.
Sean - sorry for the stupid question what is the threshold heart rate? I did a fitness test first as I was curious about VO2max. Then I did a hill at ~220 watts for 30 minutes.
That's not how I interpreted the 800 times. I too mine originally as 10 k pace minus 30 to 40 seconds (from the US RW). For me that's 4.40 (most recent 10k race) minus 30 or 40 secs. So: pace: 4 mpk to 4:10. I managed 4:16, mainly because I used another conversion factor. And I'm pleased I did; I'd never have finished them all at 4 mpk.
Tonight I did what was meant to be the 7 mile tempo run. Thursdays is rep / interval night at the club and I joined my old running pals (from before I got fat) thinking I'd just continue through the intervals (road intervals) at a steady pace, not stopping for their recoveries but not chasing them either. Target pace: 7:58 a mile.
In the end I did 8 miles in 1:07. That includes the 1 k to the club with Mrs Snaps at 9 minutes a mile, five minutes down time crossing roads etc, and nearly two minutes towards the end of the run when the group had a walk recovery. So on average I was pretty close to my goal time. But if I look at the actual running pace, we were often in the low 7 minutes per mile and there were stretches of under 7 minutes a mile.
So I feel nicely knackered tonight.
On Tuesday I did 15 minutes rowing at 65% MHR (28 strokes a minute, 1:55 per 500 metres), 15 mins cycling at 75% max, and then 20 minutes on the step master; the problem there is that if I enter my correct age it starts beeping and flashing lights when I get to a ridiculously low HR (68%) telling me "Maximum HR reached". Most annoying.
My problem with rowing is that my bum hurts after 10 minutes and my fingers go numb after 20.
Recovery: Sorry, no simple rule. The idea behind the Key Run #1 workouts is NOT to train your body to produce LESS lactate but rather to CLEAR the lactate faster. Just as the Key Run #1 workouts are varied, so are the recovery time/distances. The recovery just be just enough to allow you to go again and maintain your target pace. Check out the "Tuesday Track Workouts" link on the FIRST wesbite to see what we actually do.
http://www.furman.edu/first/Winter2006intervals.pdf
We definitely suggest that you determine your training paces from your CURRENT 10K pace. Not your 10K PR from 4 years ago or from your target 10K. Our suggested approach is based on improving your current level of running fitness.
Crank On
Scott
I often make my cross training workouts mirror my run workouts. For example, on Tuesday I did: 2 x 1200, 4 x 800 all with 2 min. recovery. On Wednesday, my indoor bike workout was: 2 x 4:00 hard with 2 min. easy then 4 x 2:45 hard with 2 min. easy. It's easy to put a lot of variety in the cross-training.
Crank On
Scott
Really enjoying this schedule as I am finding my running is improving. I'm not tired from running 'junk' miles on the other days and am therefore able to push a bit harder.
Luc, threshold heart rate is about the fastest rate you can maintain for a 10-mile race, or for 60-75 mins if you don't know 10-mile pace. In rough terms it's the point at which your body can still clear most of the lactate that you're producing, so you're just inside the point at which your legs become agonisingly heavy.
It's often roughly 85% of max HR (you might find this heart rate percentages article handy), but that varies between people according to their natural threshold and how much they've trained it upwards. Have you been able to train according to VO2max at all?
Snapstinget - good weights session. I think I'll jump on the rowing machine today for a bit of variety. Finding it hard to get beyond 20 mins on that, so I'll need to work on it...
I have to say I really like the variety which you get with this program
BTW from your posts you appear to be quite a bit faster than me at present. I'm working off 47:48 for the Brighton Reebok 10k in mid November. I'd think that 46-47 for you is quite conservative.
Re HR: the highest I have pushed my HR to lately is 178 towards the end of said 10k. But I can sustain 168 for an hour. And even chat a bit. So it's difficult for me to be too scientific about things. I can push it to 174 on long reps at faster than 10k pace. Perhaps I'm doing them too fast?
Incidentally I think I detect a slightly worried note in Scott's postings: that those of us following the RW schedule may go round telling people we're using the FIRST method, and when (if) we don't do as well as we think, we'll bring FIRST into disrepute.
For my part let me reassure him: for me this is strictly "marathon on three days a week". But I'm grateful for all the input I can get :-)
The problem is that I have no current 10k pace having only just begun with running. So I am fudging it all over the place. So consequently I am not sure what pace to use. So the 7 miler was ok in 51.24 that is roughly in a 46-45min/10k. Not sure whether to stick with this or realy push myself and stick to a 45 min /10k pace for the entire program. While I would love to aim for a sub 3.30 :-) I think that would be to wildly ambitious. As it is my first ever marathon I want to get round, and I would be very happy if I could do it in sub 4.
The targets just help stay motivated....