Sub 3

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  • took this week off running, however will start to train again as from tomorrow. I have penciled in beachy head as my next marathon as it is my local, obviously no pb planned though! would like to step up the training compared to edinburgh and get as close to the same time as edinburgh at BH.

    i didnt do any speed or hill training for edinburgh, most of my runs were along the seafront or flat long runs. hoping that by doing speed and hills each week, this should help considerably.
  • BB

    mileage prior to Edinburgh was on average in the high 30's, most being 50. Long runs around 7 1/2 min/mile pace, shorter around 7. Also with club did speed training/hills etc. Difficult to do regullar high mileage as work shifts, kids etc. Maybe I do need to increase prior to Autumn marathon. What would you suggest for sub 3? May do Cardiff as appears a fast course. Would you suggest to do more 10k and 1/2 marathons? If so how often?
  • AY4, I'd say 60mpw is a good figure to aim for. Some can do a sub 3 off less, others need more.

    10km target should be 37:30, HM sub 83.

    I'd suggest a month of running a 10 x 1km in ~3:42 with 90 sec recovery every week. Also start building a hill loop - if possible of about 1km uphill, 1km downhill. At first 30mins, add 5 mins per week until you hit an hour.

    After a month change the 10 x 1km to 45 mins @ 10M pace or 60mins @ HM pace. Pad out with steady miles and bring to a boil.
  • Got a couple of hours in this evening (with a pack on as well); felt fine in the legs considering last weekend's stroll around the Scottish capital, but this achilles injury is a bit of a crippler. Not sure if it's up to next Saturday's all-dayer (and nighter).

    Will decide on participation on Wednesday, at which point I'll throw the predictions open. 4 hours either way will win.

    SDW - good on you for having a go, but it gets exponentially harder the closer you get to 3. Believe me, I know! Might be best try and get your HM time to 1.25-1.26 for autumn and target Cardiff for a sub 3.15. That will tell you if a sub-3 is realistic. Suggest build up mileage to 50+ weekly by end of August with some fast & interval sessions mid week. Conventional wisdom is that a 1.23 HM is the yardstick for a sub 3, although not always the case. Good luck.
  • Dan A - target is for next year, probably wont do a road marathon this year. however plan to do beachy head, and get my HM times down. So far I have done a sub 1.40 HM in training - so still a long way to go!
    strong willpower, and remembering I was good in school all those years ago will drive me on!
  • Bad news bit of a crisis at CRAB towers. A large crisis. In fact, if you've got a moment, it's a twelve-storey crisis with a magnificent entrance hall, carpeting throughout, 24-hour porterage and an enormous sign on the roof, saying 'This Is a Large Crisis'. And unfortunately it led to me not making the start line tonight. All bets refunded sincerest apologees for the inconweenience. Probably not done the injury recovery too much harm though.

    SDW/AY4 I won't ruin your chances by chipping in. However, remember that 45 minutes equates to ~5.5miles improvement which is a fck of a long way - unless your name's Dan A.
  • what a bummer Crab, hope things are ok dans la maison de Crab.

    SDW, thats a big improvement to make, not impossible mind, I went from 4:03 to 2:58.

    Took me 3 years mind ! Although I wasted about 18 months of that by expecting to see continuous improvements from speed work. Initially I got some big improvements (down to 3:22 in 1 year), which looking back now, I'd attribute primarily to improved strenght.

    Once I'd figured out speed work was a dead end (for me at that stage), I got from there to 2:58 (via a 3:09) by working mainly on aerobic conditioning through increased volumne of steady milage and limited speed work (i.e. anything faster than MP).

    Get P&D.
  • When I did the Edinburgh marathon (308) I struggled badly from 22 miles onwards. Taking aside the heat, what would be the other major factor to have contributed.(most miles /week was 50, with average in the high 30's). Do i just need to up my weekly mileage to around 60? The other point is, many running mags. seem to advise running your long runs as much as a minute or slower than your marathon pace. How can you possibly then run a full 26 at marathon pace, based on those 'slow' long runs?
  • Hail Hail

    AY4 - balls. Get 'em out as often as you can in my book. And for as long as you can. All my long runs were done at about 20secs per M slower than MP, and loads of med distance work (12-16M) at MP. Well, your target MP anyway. And yes, get your weekly mileage right up there. Most of us here averaged 80M a week in the lead-up to whatever marathon we were doing. JEJ in particular was a monster, regularly hitting 100M+ weeks!! I've only done that once, which resulted in a calf strain.

    CRAB - keep smiling son. Hope things are better today.

    Massage and ice yesterday helped my quad strain. More ice today should mean racing tomorrow, although its gonna be a wet slippy course by all accounts. Target is now 35.30. Wuss, eh?
  • SDW/ AY4...Agree with what JEJ, CM and RB have said (esp with the faster paced MP)...Sub 3 hr is a journey but with proper training, diet etc you will get there...Being on the brink of midlife crisis also helps.

    Took me 1 year to go from a 1:37 HM to a 1:23 HM and 3:08 Marathon. Then a further 18 months to a 1:21 HM to 2:55 FLM06, stopping of with a 3:00:57 in FLM05.

    Local 10KM for me tonight - should be warm enough. The course is a bit of a beast so aiming for under 38 current CB 38:40). Slight club rivallry, with 4 of us fighting it out to 3,4,5 or 6th best club finisher -the other 2 will be wayout ahead.


  • Day off work yesterday for a mate's wedding. Why is it that free beer tastes so good?? Suffice to say I now feel absolutely miserable and have horrible beer sweats, very attractive. As planned am now going on the wagon to help with weight loss and am so looking forward to it.

    AY4 Those long slow runs lead to a variety of physiological benefits that will help your times at every distance. Am pretty sure JEJ saw dramatic improvements at a range of distances just by cranking the miles up. Also as the miles are banked at a lower intensity they allow you to enjoy those physiological benefits without dramatically increasing the chance of injury. Basically they will help you go faster for longer.

    As Cartman recommends, Pfitzinger & Douglas's book "Advanced Marathoning" will explain the scientific reasons underpinning all the types of training they recommend and provide a range of excellent schedules to follow. These schedules are pretty flexible so you should be able to juggle them to fit in with the sessions you are already doing and the time pressures you are under. I got my copy from Amazon and have found it invaluable. It will be a long road for me but I really believe it will help me reach my potential.

    CRAB hope life at the "Towers" has returned to some level of normality.
  • Spent a beautiful day in the confines of Great Park in Windsor for the Runnymede relays. Delays on the M25 meant that I missed my slot in my own club's B team, but filled in for a rival team, whos captain works with me.

    It's a 6 stage relay with 3 legs of about ~2.7M and 3 of ~5.5, mostly off road.

    Running for a rival club's non-competitive B team wasn't exactly inspiring, so given the 30C temperature (and watching a guy collapse 100m from the start / finish & later being carted off by air ambulance - but I believe he's ok) I set off at a fairly steady pace, perhaps HM - M effort and picked things up a tad in the final stages.

    My time for the long stage was in the region of 33 minutes. 2+ minutes quicker than last year in much hotter conditions. Judging by the speed of my 8M recovery run this evening, I reckon I could have probably pushed another minute, maybe 90s quicker.

    Nice to meet JH1, albeit very briefly... I was in the process of meeting my new temporary team mates and catching up with someone I trained with in Portugal. Amazing how many people you get to meet in these running circles.
  • Hey it was nothing major really just a chance to spout one of my favourite BA quotes. It seems to be playing havoc with my training though only managed 12miles (running) and 80miles (biking) by 1pm today - must try harder. Don't tell JH1 and CM but I did stop for a bowl of porridge in 'T1'. Maybe one day I'll do two disciplines in the order they appear on the Tri menu. Just wombled 10k watching the 'soccer' and that has taken me to 104 for the week - another Bubka record week.

    AY4 IMHO people slowing badly in the last 10k do so (predominantly) for one reason - they've run the previous 32.2k quicker than they should have done based on their current fitness level. I think I did the last 10k in Paris in 48 or something pitiful like that and yet gained a few places or stayed still-ish - you can't tell me all those gralic munchers suffered from something like 'not enough long runs' or 'too few miles' the chances are they all had trained in many different ways and all weren't fit enough (aerobically) to keep up with (cool side of tepid) LasagneMan at the business end. They weren't fit enough to handle the pace they thought - simple as. When was the last time someone said to you 'I was aiming for around 3:10 but I came in at 2:58 - amazing.'? People (certainly blokes) aim too high and long may it continue.
  • Hey - look at this, we have a new thread.

    JEJ - I was at Runnymeade Relays too. Beautiful setting for a charming event. Went off much too hard on the opening (5-and-a-bit mile) leg and suffered badly in the heat (a race description which neatly fits any of my last 5 races). Racing each week without any training in between is taking its toll.

    Course was quite tough - tasty hills and a surface of either long grass or sandy bridlepath. A bit like what cross-country would be like without driving freezing rain, and I think I prefer the cold. Ended up with a rash covering most of me - presume some weird allergy thing from the grass.
  • 37:46 in local 10K, 14th overall - freakishly 3rd at the first km. Beat a number of runners who normally beat me, 2nd placed runner for the club, successful race debut for Asics DS Trainers and FIRST, and I have little trophy - a bit shite admittedly but a trophy all the same. I love these running 'highs'!
  • Hail Hail

    CRAB - a 104M week (plus bike) must mean that there was no crisis at all. Those sort of numbers are getting silly. How on earth can you do it with PF? Go canny now son!

    OO - great result. As you say, a gong's a gong. Top work. The guy from your club that thought he was a shoe-in for 2nd spot must be raging!

    Good running JEJ and TMap as well. 30C sounds a bit too hot though.

    My quad seems to have cleared about 90%, so my w/u of 4M getting over to the 10k this am should give an indication of how hard I can push it today. 1500 strong event, but with most good club runners heading to the final in a 10k series today, I'll be hoping for a top 10 finish. Only prob is, I cannae find my watch! Yellow shoes today.
  • Hail Hail

    Not a good race today. It was a stronger field than I was expecting with a couple of 33min runners and quite a few decent fellas who have beaten me recntly. The course was a lot hillier than expected, and I could feel my quad playing up from 7k onwards. I set off fine, and at 1k I was in 10th spot. I gradually worked my way up, and was holding onto 5th spot from 6-7k. My quad started playing up, so I eased off, comfortable in the knowledge that I would stay top 10. Finished 8th with splits thus

    1 - 3.28
    2 - 3.36
    3 - 3.40
    4 - 3.38
    5 - 3.37
    6 - 3.39
    7 - 3.35
    8 - 3.46
    9 - 4.01
    10 - 3.41

    Finish time (watch) 36.42.

    Dont know the winning time yet. Not pleased, but not gutted either.
  • Hi all,

    Just found out where you all 'jumped' to. I've been analysing the times you gave me on the other thread. What is interesting is the lack of statistical correlation between the 3 times (10m, Half, Mar). However, one trend I am finding is that there seems to be a minimum you must achieve in 10m and HM to achieve sub 3. It looks like you need to go sub 1h 25m for HM and sub 63.50 for 10m. Obviously this varies by person.

    I've done little training for last 2 months and I've put on nearly a stone in weight - still eating marathon training volumes! I've been to see the physio as I've got some soft tissue damage on the navicular bone (in foot).

    So no racing for me so far but I'm going to plod a HM in July. My aim is to be 90 mins!!

    I've entered NYC marathon and I'm starting the 18 week P&D schedule in July. I'm not as fit as when I started FLM.

    I sent off a letter to FLM re good for age about 3 weeks ago but not heard anything. Should I be expecting a reply?

    I've just been accepted for some physiological testing at local university. They're going to run me to exhaustion on Weds to test my aerobic endurance and over the next two weeks they're going to test my anerobic performance. It's free as I'm participating in the test.
  • Welcome back SB,
    Just to spoil your findings, my pb's for 10M and HM were 66 & 86 at the time of going sub 3 ;)

    RB - rest.

    16M of running on a 19M loop for me - running partner who is normally quicker than me wilted and was reduced to walking in the heat. On the other hand I'm feeling much better with the added mileage this week. Heading for about 85 to 90 depending on if / what I do later this evening, but the average pace is probably ~6:20ish for the week.
  • I was also at the Runneymede relays and did a disappointing 34mins. Did 32mins last year so was a bit behind that time. Went out fairly comfortable but the heat just took it out of my legs and my mouth was so dry. Just wasn't on yesterday. Done very little training since London Mara and have put on a few pounds since then and have only done about 15miles running in last 2 weeks. Better start some longer mileage weeks soon if only to shed some weight. Good to see you JEJ as you say very briefly.
  • well I've had the nightmare week from hell with work and a cold to boot, so not been the best training week for me at all ! slept straight for 12 hrs last night. Binned two runs, but still managed to get 4 other session s in, and a load of biking to boot.

    Crab, fck me mate, thats some bliddy week !

    Am doing a 1/2m mid week and am not expecting anything good at all ! Specially cos its the day after a big cycle/run sess, but will be interesting to see how I get on.

  • Hi CRAB - I agree with your points on sub-3hr.The only thing i would say is that I probably did aim a little high with the training i did (only averaging in the high 30's/week) but the Edinburgh marathon was also in pretty extreme conditions -all training in winter/early spring with no runs atall in anything nearing the temps. in EB. So that must have had quite an effect in itself. I am considering doing the Cardiff marathon in Autumn to ? go under 3 hrs. I need to follow a schedule, how long should i hold back on the training after EB before getting stuck in?
    Any recommendations for a GPS - when i train i have no idea what pace i am running etc
  • The reviews for GPS -especially signals receipt or not - seems variable. Any experience/views
  • Hail Hail

    AY4 - Give it another few days before beginning a schedule. I've learnt from bitter experience about too much too soon. Hence yesterday's average performance.
    You've got to go for one of the new Garmin's. The signal is superb, and the accuracy is pretty much spot on. Sweatshop are offering the 205 for £229 with £40 of vouchers included, or the 305 with HRM for £289 with a free pair of shoes up to £80. Look here for details

    http://www.sweatshop.co.uk/

    Yes, I do work for them, but I'm not on commission. Just giving you my professional opinion.
  • Hail Hail

    Proof that yesterday's course was tougher than expected for all runners. The first guy home was hoping to do 33.30 (spoke to him at the line), and the 3rd is a regular sub35 er.

    Happier now that I've mover up a place.

    http://www.scottishathletics.org.uk/event_files/4824.pdf
  • AY4,
    I had a timex GPS and it was not always reliable especially in London; also it always gave the distances too long (eg. half marathons at 13.6 miles). It got nicked a couple of months ago and I switched to a polar footpod (625x?)thingy (speed distance and heartrate) for £180 plus it can download everything onto computer, which for a saddo like me is really useful. The polar thingy is very reliable and fairly accurate (although i'm still checking/testing the accuracy).

    I would recommend the footpod
  • Hail Hail

    Oh aye. Forgot to mention that both the 205, but particularly the 305 link up to your pc, work with google earth (and memory map), and can supply enough analytical data to keep Prof CM in statistical heaven for months on end!
  • CM Just as well I didn't mention the lunchtime swombling I packed in last week too - think my training load exceded yours and your timebombs definitely ticking now!

    AY4 FWIW I reckon the GPS thing is a bit overrated. I've got a Timex one (or I did have until I lent it to a guy in the orifice and I have little intention of asking for it back to be honest) and whilst it kept me amused for a while I never used it after about 3months. If you stick to the black stuff (like what I do) then measuring couldn't be easier. All you gotta do is go and run ~10miles in a couple of weeks (to allow full recovery) to gauge what shape you were in for Edinburgh then do this every couple of weeks to see how much progress you've made. The distance aint that important. These guys seem to have some cracking (cheese Gromit) deals on Polar stuff at the moment - I think they're clearing stocks after relinquishing the distributorship or something.

    Now if you want to make comments like 'Interestingly my Garmin measured it at 13.24940 whereas my training partner's made it 13.435321' then don't let me put you off. Do these people realise that starting such comments with the word 'Interestingly' speaks volumes for their (lack of) personality ;o.

    (Ooh 'ark at me - get back in the knife drawer son.)

    Granted myself a rest day yesterday.

    Good work to all the racers achieving good times - even the one with little interest in the World Cup who spent the run up to his 10k with some outrageous sandbagging and has started again this morning!

    BTW Couldn't help but reflect on the similarity between Dan A's, who I believe has been known to swing a few in his time, quest for sub 3 and Mrs DoubtFire's quest for a Major. If there was a duathlon for Golf and Running my money would be on our boy though not sure Monty's exactly built for speed.
  • crab,
    don't be daft; the GPS only works to 2dp... although interestingly mine read 13.58 for one half marathon and 13.56 for another.

    i did a pw for the first time in years yesterday. 44something for a 10K.

    i'm running the borehamwood 1/2 this week on no milage, but some cycling. i could be on for a 1/2 pw this week!
  • just checked my previous pw for a half...1h47 at the docklands 1/2 in 1998
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