P + D training for VLM 2013



  • KeirKeir ✭✭✭

    This is what 'normal' people HR splits look like MXB! (My pb from Abingdon 2009)

    Time     Distance   Split time Split pace Avg. HR     Max. HR
    0:33:13    5.00      33:13        6:39         155 (79%) 165 (85%)
    1:05:53   10.00     32:40        6:32         163 (84%) 167 (86%)
    1:38:20   15.00     32:26        6:29         161 (82%) 165 (85%)
    2:10:55   20.00     32:35        6:31          161 (83%) 165 (84%)
    2:44:27   25.00     33:32        6:43         166 (85%) 171 (88%)
    2:54:23   26.45      9:55         6:51         171 (88%) 175 (90%)

  • Can I join you all? I am definitely going to do the 55 mile P&D for either Manchester or VLM. Will wait and see if I get a club place for VLM first, will start training mid Dec and will just plod along until then doing steady hilly trail runs I think and keep to around 30-40 miles a week. I have booked Trail Marathon Wales in for June too so VLM would be preferable as would give me an extra week to recover.

    Agree that I will add more 22 milers in as not enough for me in the 55 mile Plan.
  • Hello everyone,

    Id like to join this thread too!

    Glad i found this, im target is sub 3 at VLM and i was thinking of trying to follow the P&D 55-70 schedule.

    My marathon pb was 3.16 at Liverpool just over a year ago but after a year of triathlon training i feel in better shape than then. I think i need to up the mileage significantly as ive always maxed out at about 45 miles per week.

    I feel like i can manage quite high volume but i struggle a bit with speedwork in training so i think ill need to tread carefully. Thinking maybe just build up the mileage till Jan then include the quicker sessions.

    Some really informative posts on here and some impressive times as well!

  • Morning all

    Welcome Mark and HeOw.

    There has been a wealth of useful information on here I must say. Finally my copy of the book has turned up so now digesting the info.

    I've come to the conclusion that now is not the time to try to establish my WHR.  I'm only into my second week post marathon and my RHR is 68/min which may be true, but since others are still noting a higher rate, may reflect my post marathon state.  I think I'll wait another couple of weeks and then sort it out.  No hurry, I'll just keep running easy in the meantime.

    Tek - based on my marathon PB and a recent HM the gap between my 2 paces is 1:10. Although this may not reflect my current marathon pace as the most recent marathon was a bit slower due to the terrain.

  • TeknikTeknik ✭✭✭

    Ship-star - sorry for the cross-post.  Here's a good start on HR training / testing


    Ashman the link to the actual Hadd doc is broken, but it's now on


    Welcome HeOw and markimage

    Keir - that tells me I need to push my LT up by upping the 80-83% Hadd ceiling over the next few months.

    Fiona : Just done some bored trawling through my Fetch buddy list on HM v MP. Totally unscientific but...

    (1) 2h33 mara MP = HM +19 secs

    (2) 2h49 ... +24 secs

    (3) 2h56 mara ...+30 secs

    (4) 2h58 ... +40 secs

    (5) 3h07... +47 secs

    (6) 3h35...+59 secs






  • welcome, mark & heow.

    I have the Hadd thingie as a word doc, so if anyone wants it, PM me your e-mail and I can send it over.

    Have also got a geeky excel thingie for P&D image that Minni from the sub 3:30 thread sent me. Saves you from checking the book every single day - simply choose the P&D version you want to do, enter date of your race and it populates the spreadsheet with all key workouts. There's also space for you to input your actual mileage/pace/time vs. the scheduled. And if you decide to use the "trainer" option it'll even calculate how much mileage you've done in each pair imageimage

  • Fiona J wrote (see)

    I've come to the conclusion that now is not the time to try to establish my WHR.  I'm only into my second week post marathon and my RHR is 68/min which may be true, but since others are still noting a higher rate, may reflect my post marathon state.  I think I'll wait another couple of weeks and then sort it out.  No hurry, I'll just keep running easy in the meantime.

    I am not sure I have got my MHR right; I got it at 175 and I did this during a 3 mile speed session where i ran as fast as I could for the 3 miles. The reason I am not convinced it is right is because I hear of younger, fitter, more experienced runners on here with a MHR of over 190. So, I was going to try again to get my MHR. I have my first half coming up in a few days so dont want to overdo things before that. So, based on what Fiona has said about her RHR I was wondering the best time I should try and establish my MHR ? Will the half actually help me if my RHR is higher for a period of time after my half ? Cheers

  • Welcome Mark and Heow

    Chickadee - you have mailimage

    Tek - that's a very interesting piece of analysis. Maybe I need to start thinking my real Marathon race pace is currently more like 07:40-07:50....?

  • TeknikTeknik ✭✭✭

    YP it's not a very big sample size...

    Buddy (3) is a Hadd freak on 70mpw;  

    Buddy (4) doesn't train by HR and used the P&D 18/85 (and is in his mid fifties - there is hope for me, yet!);

    Buddy (5) was doing 75 miles a week.

    Buddy (6) was doing 40 mpw

    ...if you put the (slow) miles in, the gap narrows...

  • Agree Tek, for me the more slow miles the closer MP and HMP become (in my limited expience).

  • stutyrstutyr ✭✭✭

    Hi Carter, I think your max heart rate may be higher than you measured as that doesn't sound like enoguh stress in your original test.  The following link gives you details of how to do a max heart rate test.  it also recommends not doing the test for a period after a race until your body has recovered




  • Tek - I suppose that is what you would expect really.

    Carter - a HM shouldn't have as big an effect on your HR as a marathon, but probably best to wait a bit before trying to sort it out.

  • TeknikTeknik ✭✭✭

    Fiona...mmm, also consider though the "cumulative training volume" 

    Number of marathons

    (1) 41 (his first was 4h17!!!)

    (2) 9

    (3) 12

    (4) 7

    (5) 3

    I've left (6) out as it spoils things - he's done 37 but the PB was early on, before he started trying to get to 100 maras by running one every sodding week-end...image

  • Teknik: Great link about HADD, much appreciated image

  • YP, carter, ashman & mace: you all got mail image

  • Thanks Teknik and Chickadeee much appreciated !!!

  • TeknikTeknik ✭✭✭

    Gaz what base mileage are you up to now?

    Carter, I agree with Stutyr - a 3m race is too long to max out - you probably only hit 95%.  Max HR is genetic and won't go "up" with training/conditions - although your resting can be pushed down by training.

  • macemace ✭✭✭

    Tek - interesting stats, quite a good correlation there .... looks to be around HM x 2 plus 10% in the 3-4 hr range, slightly better ( as you'd expect ) for the speedy gonzalez dudes.

    Chick' - received, thankyou very much... not had a look at it yet but will get stuck in at the weekend image

    After an epic fail last week where after a 15.5M LSR on Sunday i realised my weekly total was 49M image, i'm delighted to say i've clocked 37M ( 5-10-7-5-10 ) so far this week, rest tomorrow then bar a disaster i should hit my first 50 for the week some time Sunday morning.imageimageimage 

    Right, that's me off to check there are no hurricanes forecast in my area for Sunday

    Have good weekends folks, happy running image

  • Tek: I've edged up to 61 miles last week and will probably hit just over 65 this week. That'll do me now, I'll keep that mileage and try and move from running 1 80% effort a week to 2 sometime around Xmas.

    How about you? You going to try and get back to the P&D mileage you were hitting over the summer but in a Hadd program?

  • TeknikTeknik ✭✭✭

    Gaz: I'm going to build back up slowly, hopefully hitting the 60's by December, all Hadd (with one 80%), then P&D 12/70 from mid January...I'm adding a few longer LSRs.

    Still messing with the plan - I want to race my local half in March, which points to doing the P&D tempo's, but I also want to keep one 80%+ Hadd run too...it all looks a bit much when you throw in the MP finishes to LRs, the tune-up races etc...image

    Mace - good running fella!

  • All 3 would be too much for me mate. I''m going to make a decision in the new year whether to swap the LT runs in P&D for a longer  80% run. I won't be able to do both and a MP paced long run at the weekend.

  • TeknikTeknik ✭✭✭

    yep I'm going to have to limit it to 2 out a combination of 80% / LT / tune-up races / MP finish on LSR in any one week...

  • You could do your 80% one week and then a "traditonal" tempo of 90% the next week.

    Or 80% and interveral training in same week image

  • TeknikTeknik ✭✭✭

    Hi spen - my tempo's are going to be Sunday club races, and I can't see myself "holding back" every other week to make it an 80% job...image.

  • Hi Everyone,

    I've not even received my copy of the P&D book yet but thought I'd introduce myself and say how much I've already enjoyed this thread.

    I'm sure I'll have lots of questions for you all as I start training for London.

  • I still am following this thread with interest but keep finding more questions I need answering image Right... someone said to do the first part of long runs @ 70 % then go up to 75% I did 13 miles yesterday, I did 10 miles @70% then the last 3 @75%   in 1 hour 57 .which of course average out at 9 mim mile (DOH) was that enough at 75 %  for a 13 miler ? and is it possible to work out my expected marathon pace from this for the mara paced runs OR if not what HR do I run the mara paced runs at ?? I havent used an hrm to train for a marathon with. Think that covers it.....for now

    confused 50 year old granny of 3 image

  • TeknikTeknik ✭✭✭


    Let me have a go - but bear in mind they may well be opposing views.

    P&D tell you to run your LR at MP +20% accelerating to MP+10% for the last 5 miles (p16).

    For me that usually coincides with 70%max and 75%max HR - and I don't get much drift at those low HRs (so the increase to 75% is due to increased pace, not drifting HR over time). But you may well be different to me, so....

    Problem - you don't know what your MP is going to be. So we're in to rules of thumb


    (1) Female Mara time average  = HM x 2.25 (male is HM x 2.29). There was a Moraghan thread on this - correlation was very high on the RW test data, and was true across all ages groups...ratios didn't get much better until you got to the sub-3 guys

    (2) 5 x 10k time?

    (3) I use Hadd, who makes you do 10 mile runs at 80% to 83% max HR - once you find a pace that you can maintain in that band, with no upward drift, for 10 miles, then that's your MP according to Hadd. (Over time Hadd has you nudge up the intensity but I find my pace increases at that HR over the course of a campaign anyway...)

  • KeirKeir ✭✭✭

    To add a bit more to Tek's detailed answer...

    Daniels Running formula (which P&D is based upon) p39 states the following HR bands (%HR max)

    Easy - 65 - 80%

    Marathon - 80 - 90%

    Tempo 88 - 92%

    10k zone 92.5 - 97%

    So if you know your HR max, you should be able to have a rough idea on your average HR in a marathon (although HRs generally rise throughout the event)

    Personally - I usually train to HR apart from key sessions when I train to pace. In the marathon I run to pace not HR. But it is interesting to see the HR data post race. When trying to estimate MP this is a constantly changing figure. Just because you may have a target pace - say 9m/m it doesn't mean that you are fit enough to race at this pace now! Therefore your training MP needs to be adjusted upwards as you get fitter.

  • Wow a few days not checking page and its lots of interesting reading, welcome heow & mark1981. Mxb you continue to amaze me, you may have to start your own blog image

    Hey Chickadee, can you send me the excel sheet too please?

    Another good 40mile week for me here in Singapore, the storms have been twice a day when I've been running so its been fairly cool here and nice running this week. I hope it continues. 


  • Chickadee - thanks for the mail. I'm very impressed by the spreadsheet, and a copy of that will be on my fridge very soonimage

    I've just done a very relaxed 6 miles with the dog. Average heart rate of 125bpm, which is the lowest I've seen for quite a while.image
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