Howdy, Stranger!
Categories
Options
Moraghan Training - Stevie G
The materials in this website are in no way intended to replace the professional medical care, advice, diagnosis or treatment of a doctor, qualified personal trainer, therapist, dietitian or nutritionist Runners's World, Part of the Hearst UK well-being network © Copyright 2017
Comments
The more I read about recovery from training sessions as regards super compensation, the more I wonder if any of us will actually get any training done at all.
What most of us think of as rest and recovery appears to be about one tenth of what the scientists think of as adequate.
Reading between the lines, only Phil appears to fit the long term profile. That is a year or so of high loading and then several months of less loading if any at all.
I'll stick my neck out and predict that Phil will; over the next few months, catch up and surpass previous performance levels.
🙂
I like that prediction. To be honest it is a thing that has happened and I have got used to so my running has always been linked with work so when I have time off work, I tend to have time off running as well so often have a couple of weeks off at Christmas and also the same in the summer.
While you are there RicF, I am still trying to sort out second claim. I want to run the New Town Moor marathon as a BMAF qualifier so I need BMAF affiliation: any idea how I get that? It would be nice if I could run some of the vets track league as well so I see Metros does that, so if I join Metrois secodn claim am I then B
Well thanks to the heavy snowfall here in Kent I'm in a period of forced non running which can only be good news for Reading Half Marathon on Sunday then
Phil, for BMAF affiliation you have to join one of those Vets clubs. They tend to be quite cheap to join. I joined the SCVAC last year (To qualify for their 10 mile championships) and it cost £15. Its just a second claim club.
The Metros (which is my second claim club) does a vets track league during the summer, on a Monday evening at places such as Battersea Park.
Metros was the first club I joined but were never going to put teams out for the regional/National road relays or higher level XC, so I joined Harrow AC as first claim.
I still run the Metros TVXC and the Round Norfolk Relay when on. But during the summer I run the Summer League, which as I mentioned before are low key 10k and 5 milers. Some of these make PO10 but as NAD (All over distance if you ask the Garmin)
In the past lots of Metros joined Harrow AC just for track running. (British/ Southern league)
🙂
Johnas,
There's been a few references on the thread along the lines of 'if I don't run each day I'll seize up'.
It would seem that the seizing up is just the initial stage of muscle repair and adaptation.
Takes quite a compounded loading to get to that stage. According to the scientists thats just one extra days running without full recovery from the previous session.
Seems like you could survive for the better by not not running a yard between now and next Sunday.
Without meaning to deliver another anecdote. I remember one decent runner who, once he had got to race level, sometimes didn't train for days but gave the job quite a hit when he did. Turned up to one XC having only jogged 2 miles in the previous 2 weeks (night before) and won by a field and a half, easy.
🙂
Well, I'll be able to put those theories to the test now...
Just back from the physio. Bad news, though not (yet!) disasterous. He has diagnosed a pull on the tendon where the hamstrings attach to the bone. He thinks it was weakened by the 200s on Sunday, then the fall last night was just an unlucky addition that put the final nail in the coffin.
He has recommended ice/heat/Ibuprofen/massage (and of course a series of sessions with him ASAP - at £45 a pop and no medical insurance that's hard to stomach!). He says I can, and should, run, but only very low intensity and nothing more than 5 miles. He looked very doubtful that I'd be able to do Maidenhead 10 in 2 weeks, and the one that is really gutting, my week in the fells over Easter with two races is looking to be a washout as well, hills being a major problem for the injury...
He also said, if I don't take it very easy and treat the injury with respect, that there is every chance it could wipe out the whole summer or even longer. The worse thing is, is that he said it could feel much better, I doa high intensity sessiona nd it might just pop again - great!
He had some interesting views on endurance runners - apparently we should never stretch, unless for a specific injury and never before running, and we shouldn't be doing 200s!
Nver really sure how you know about these guys though - I went to him on the basis that its the nearest clinic I could get to from work and he was prepared to squeeze me in as an emergency appointment. He has some impressive clients on his Linkedin page, and seemed to know his stuff.
Hey ho, feeling pretty cheesed off now as you might expect!
PC2, good report, another who finished strongly. Always a bit disorientating with both faster and slower road guys around you - XC is a funny business. I do wonder whether there's any rhyme or reason why certain people are better on the country. Thanks for the reassurance, maybe a county vest could be possible one day. However, I will need to make some XC improvement.
Ric's points are taken, but I do sometimes wonder if that approach is most applicable to those who have been running for many years and have built up the sort of aerobic base that a few weeks off can't really put much of a dent in. I suspect a good amount of time off wouldn't really damage SG's times, for instance.
However, in my case, I've been running seriously (i.e. more than once a week) for a year and a half. My feeling when coming back from any time off is that I struggle to get back into it for a week or two. My worst race last year was the race immediately after I'd had a week away and had barely run. That is, of course, anecdotal, but I do know that as soon as I started warming up I realised that my legs were struggling.
I have another reason for not wanting to take large amounts of time off - if there's one thing I can match anyone on this thread on it's experience of years of laziness. 15 years, to be precise. I know all too well that if I stopped running for an extended period of time, if it stopped being a habit, I would be unlikely to start again.
Your anecdotes are always (genuinely) appreciated though Ric...
Right, so I'm running the Reading Half on Sunday. However, I'm not terribly sure how to approach it. This was going to be a big target race to get sub-75, but I've already cracked that particular nut earlier than anticipated. As well as that, the Eastleigh 10K the following weekend is a big, big target for me. A PB could be possible, but it would involve a supreme effort that could affect Eastleigh. Not running it isn't really an option, as it is a fantastic experience for me, as in no other races will I have a fraction of the support from friends, clubmates etc out on the course.
Marathon pace isn't a great option - I don't have a marathon til October, so it seems a bit pointless. Plus, I will be surrounded by clubmates and local rivals, and I'm not sure I could be disciplined enough to let people beat me. I think maybe I may end up running fairly controlled the first half (6mm ish) and then upping the ante in the second half, just for the enjoyment of overtaking for the second half of the race and seeing how much time I can claw back. Of course, I reserve the right to ignore all the above and just blast it...
Bus, that's rubbish, sorry to hear that. Hope managing it will pay off and you will be able to be back to it prior to the fells.
Some idiosyncratic views from your physio there. Did he specify why you have to keep coming back for sessions? What will he be doing in those sessions? And as for never stretching, that sounds like the kind of protectionist attitude to self-help you get from the IT industry. No offence to anyone in the IT industry of course.
Dachs,
It would appear you have several options on the HM.
Maybe should run the first 10 miles at 'long run' pace and then stick a fast 5k on the end of it.
I've run a 10 miler where I went from 6:30 pace for 9 miles to a final mile of 5:30.
That was fun.
🙂
Thanks Dachs.
He said early sessions to get the healing process underway ASAP with heat treatment and physical therapy and see how it was responding. Diffiuclt to argue with that - just don't want to fork out loads of money!
As for the stretching, he was fairly specific about it for endurance runners and did explain his rationale, which I didn't quite understand being in pain, face down on his physio bed with what seemed to be a ray gun attached to my arse! I think the gist of it was that, unless you are a sprinter or do some other sport that requires explosive speed then stretching prior to running is counter productive. He was OK with foam rollering and gentle stretching after running, but told me to deinitely not strecth this injury.
Weired mix of old school and high tech though - his place was littered with old Olympic tracksuits etc, but he is also at the cutting edge of musculoskeletal research and lecturing (apparently!)
You’ve brought me out of lurking as someone who works in the IT industry
and is injured and has recently had the similar advice on stretching that BUS received.
I have a hamstring problem, its an ache that is fine to be stretched, it isnt painful on touch or when masaged, the ache only starts up when I run, I sometimes feel it when I walk up stairs.
My physio advised me not to stretch my hamstrings out, as runner I have all the flexibility I need in the hamstring so why stretch or lengthen the muscle more? He advised me to keep my hips and quads limber but to leave the hamstring alone.
Bus, sorry about the set back.
Can't say too much about physio's. I've only bothered them three times, twice in one week in 1989 and once in 1992.
I've had a few injuries mind, but sorted them out myself.
🙂
Thanks Ric. Usually my approach, but this one jsut felt different.
After a quick Google search, it appears this guy was physio to Steve Ovett and Steve Cram in the 80s!
Ric - I can completely understand the physical benefits of rest. It's the physcological effect I think most of us struggle with. A few days off and only running 2 miles in the 3 days before my last 5K has definitely helped me to realise a few days off can do you the world of good! Saying that though, being in the throngs of marathon training means a whole week off would play serious mind games and I guess the majority of us feel the same.
Dachs - feel free to pace me round!
Bus - a tough one and here's hoping it's not too serious. Always trciky when going to a new physio. i've built up a lot of trust with mine and listen to every word he says. He's right about one thing though, injuries need to be treated with respect and no point pushing if you're in pain mate.
Ah, yes, I see. I never stretch prior to running (contrary to what all those old-school coaches used to tell me, such as my dad) but will generally stretch afterwards if it's been a hard effort (though never after a shortish easy run).
I have to say, running rivals bringing up children for the sheer amound of contradictory advice that you get thrown at you.
YD,
The dull ache you feel on running is a repair mechanism. Its something called muscle fibre recruitment.
When you start a training run, only some of the muscle fibres are used to start with. As you go further, more and more are brought into play.
The ache you feel are the new untrained fibres having to work a bit harder.
The long term process is why we run a very long way when training for marathons. It might take two hours of running to get to every fibre.
🙂
The thread appears to have caught fire.
🙂
Johnas, If its long runs you are worried about, I wouldn't be. The evidence seems to indicate that once you can complete a run the way you did on Sunday, you only need to do something similar once every six weeks!
Maintanence level is only 50% of the training load it takes to get there. (Coe senior)
🙂
Cheers Ric. nail on the head again - i guess it's all about maintenance currently so the Coe Senior quote makes for interesting reading.
Would I be able to overcome my 'marathon' mindset of high mileage and cut back to 50%, bearing in mind I think I'm in pretty good shape right now to hit my target? It's an interesting thought but not one I'm sure I could bring myself to do
Johnas,
the current thinking on tapering is that you are at the start of it right now.
From what I can deduce, the volume becomes 50%, the frequency 80% but the intensity remains at 100% of normal levels.
The run I did myself on Sunday followed two weeks of no more than two and three miles in total per day. At least one mile (2 x 0.5m) of those runs were fast though. 5:30/5:40 speed.
Endurance sticks. Even a marathon is about speed once you can last the distance.
🙂
Dachs - you are either in or you are out regards Reading. What if you jog Reading and then get weather like Stevie had at trafford which flattens the chance of PB at your 10k. Personaly i would go for a PB in both and rest completely the following week before the 10k. Or if not why not run just off your HM PB pace by aiming for a 75 or 76. so you are having a decent run but not too het up about lost seconds at each split.
Bus - Balls! sorry to hear that, although something that worries me is being told i can run but at low intensity. If i got that advice i wouldnt run at all until it healed. Whats the point of 10mm for you. I would rather take some rest time and recover from all the niggles or go to the gym on a cross trainer.
Ric - im a convert already regards taper but im sure i dont do enough. When i have a 3 or 4 days off i will go out for a 5m at say 7.15 pace and my body will have none of it and im in the low 6's and feels a doss. so i think if i do this before an A race i tend to feel strong after a few days rest. But im still sure i dont rest enough, so i will look at that link you posted.
Why are 200m sessions considered so bad and not say 400m. they are both sprints. Surely its all about the pace you push yourself at. If you go flat out at 200s then i can understand that is bad as you never use that pace (bar a sprint finish) in a 10k/HM. But a sensible pace to work the legs and lungs, i see no problem with. In fact the 200m sessions are probably my favorite.
Dean - he said that the tendon needs to be stimualted to heal properly, but not enough to make it worse. he said that it wouldn't heal of its own accord if just left without stimulation.
Just noticed on the back of the card his receptionist gave me - it says Chief Physiotherapist to England Rugby Team, GB Olympic team, GB Athletic Team !
Although the olympics was back in 1976 and 1980 may be £45 per session aint so bad after all!
PS - I think the danger with the 200s is that you are tempted to go flat out - I did unfortunately! They certainly work for you, that's for sure!
I intend to mix the very easy 5 milers
with a bit of swimming and cycling. Cross trainer is a no-no as it loads the hamstrings too much (as is the 22 flights of stairs I've been doing daily for my fell races 
)
Wow, i'm not on the thread for a day and it explodes...maybe there's something in that
Bus, sorry old chap, sounds just the sort of thing you don't want, not just the injury, but hearing it might be made worse if you work too hard! Can't quite tell from your description of the physio on whether it was SL or not. Sounds a bit like him, but he's very pro keeping athletes in the sport they do, so if he's telling you to be very careful that is gospel...be very careful indeed!
Didn't realise you'd done those 200 flat flat out. That is exceptionally taxing...mine are strictly limited to 1500 pace, and Moraghan told me before the "track race night" at Sandhurst last year to be careful, and remember my age...ie no flat out sprinting.
Hope you're back super quick obviously pal!
Dachs,surprised to hear you're doing Reading. Like you say was a potential 2nd chance if Wokingham went well, so you are in a quandry. I originally had a 4 pronged race schedule, but Moraghan wisely vetoed Reading, saying it doesn't sit ideally for a good race at Eastleigh the week after. 10k first then half yes, otherway round not so much.
Ric, good to have you back old chief...not quite on a different wavelength after all eh?
Although this tickled me....
Reading between the lines, only Phil appears to fit the long term profile. That is a year or so of high loading and then several months of less loading if any at all.
I'll stick my neck out and predict that Phil will; over the next few months, catch up and surpass previous performance levels.
You make it sound like Phil as purposely reduced his volume for longer term gain. In fairness, as I'm sure Phil will agree he's just had it inflicted on him through niggles for half of last year, and is still rebuilding now!
(i may have mis understood your post tho, and if i have forgive me...)
as I've had a manic day despite having this week off work.
7am wake up.
10am hard session, 9miles including, 1mile 10k, 90secs, 3miles MP, 90secs, 1mile 10k.
5.30, 6.05,5.55,5.52, 5.34
I do it on a 0. 9mile loop that has a slight incline one side, and slight descent the other side.
The MP bits came out abit too fast, but sometimes you just gain momentum.
The last 10k mile was a bit too slow, but through bad luck it ended on the incline, into powerful bitter wind! Could feel i was working hard though, so the right intensity.
Then had to take care of some business from 12 to about 4.30, so had no time to eat, and then a 4miler at 5pm!
Not the ideal nutritional plan, but was glad to get through the 4 without feeling too dead!!
Wycombe game tonight to end a manic day.
Tomorrow's lay in is going to be gliorious!
Thanks SG, glad to be here.
What you mentioned about reduced loads for long term gain. I think you may have inadvertently done the same last year while you were out of sorts.
The number of cases where a prolonged training load ends in some mishap which keeps the protagonist out of action for ages, only to return better, are many. That's super compensation on a macro scale.
Anecdote: Yup, another one.
I hit a peak in 1990, trained on until 1994, couldn't improve so packed it in until the end of 1995. Trained up again for a year and then after about 12 weeks of bits and pieces suddenly started winning races in stupid times. Lasted two years then gone.
I assume that was a peak. The time scales are so long we can't see the woods for the trees.
🙂
aha! penny dropped. didnt realise the slow running was part of the recovery.
PC2 - good report, i think we both dont convert as well as we should, your recent HM and 10k are a better guide to how well you are running.
Bus, by the sound of it I don't think you'll be out too long. Once the pain goes, I'd get straight back to efforts again. These Physio types like to be safe than sorry. See this as a rest before the huge slog to Abingdon! But you'll be back on your staple diet of 800M reps quicker than you think!
Nice session early doors SG, I can't move at 7am never mind think about 10k pace! Hardcore!
Jonhas, where do you get your long run and MP sessions from? They look really tough but great workouts. That last one you did was awesome, hats off to you. With that in the bag, you must have pretty much logged all your quality before VLM.
Quick session for me tonight. 3 x 2mins, 3 x 90s, 3 x 60s, 3 x 30s. Average pace was 5:10, 5:00, 4:45, 4:40 for each set. Felt really good!
I don't know about legendary, but thanks.
Yep Mcmillan seemed to somehow come into line for me last season.
2h37m47s marathon predicts a 16m12 5km and 9m13.1 3km
I ran 2h37m47, 16m12 and 9m12.8 in a two month period. Not quite sure how I achieved it, but won't complain.
Ah welcome back Big Man. I do miss you and ALD, forum fore fathers.
I check your blog here and there, the long runs and super long track sessions look killer. But then you are training for different ends to us lot clearly.
Quite amazing to have the 5k and marathon matching!
At the moment i'm not even matching between 5k and half marathon off the more reasoned (in my opinion) Howard Grubb calculator. Maybe it'll become closer with a few 5ks under my wing.
Ric, interesting and unexpected peak then near the end there. How do you keep the motivation to race into later years? I've often thought the "easy" time is on the upward curve, hitting times for the first time.
Stevie, I'm no hero, i did allow myself a full 3hours before getting out for the warm up, all done up in warm clothing, before unleashing the skimpies for the session. I can't pretend that the 10k pace miles felt glorious! But the MP stuff was smashed out.
Tedious wycombe game, 2-2, didn't finish until 9.50 thank goodness for tomorrow being off work!
Are you going to Portugal with 209 events for a training camp or is it a proper holiday??