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I got to 64 min for 10M and 38 min off 2 or 3 runs/week, plus cycling, swimming and bodyweight workouts., with a longest run of about 8 miles.
Trained through the winter for FLM (but never ran due to chest infection) and still weighed the same 12 stone at 5 ft 10.
I carry lots of muscle – but the point is it keeps my metabolism high and even though it will limit how fast I can run its not dead weight like fat is.
I’m not as good (or as light) as Gobi, but I ran 1h 23m at Gosport, off nothing but easy running cos I hurt my knee ligaments back in the summer.
Gobi is IMO a fine physical specimen (I saw him Sunday) and his weight training keeps him off the injury bench and enables him to train so often.
Marmite
This is an interesting thread, but give me time to read through all of it properly. Didn't get back online till yesterday and this indeed looks like an interesting thread
According to the info Horwill i think as a 5'4" female and more of a long distance runner the table you put has me down for 102lbs thats 7st 4lb if my calculations are correct. If i ever got down to that weight (i wouldn't) family and friends would cart me down to the doctors/hospital for fear i had an eating disorder.
Saying that in my teens/early 20s weighed around 8st 2lb never dared get under 8st if i did i just ate more this was fine till i got to be 30.
2005/6 i actually lost weight (from 10st. through running i don't do diets either believe a life style change is needed plus i would rather run more. Found in the short time i ran over 50 miles though my appetite increased. I actually got down to 8st 10lb.
Today i am 15lb heavier. Think this reflects on my times this year 90seconds slower for 5km (been mainly doing 5ks this year) though training hasn't been consistant with one thing or another
Hopefully i can shift this now and 2008 will be better marathon training now so hopefully that will help like Poppy i doubt i would want to get under 8st Though when i got down to 8st 10 some people at work thought i was getting too thin.
Anyway i shall be back to finish reading this when i have a bit more time
I don't think I've quite got the hang of this yet.
eL Bee! commented on me eating a sweet at the time I'd normally be eating chocolate last night. I reflexly said, "Well, I have to replace the chocolate with *something* so that I don't waste away.
Which, of course, would rather defeat the purpose!
Gumps, I like the "diminishing returns" idea - I subscribe to the notion that for most things in life, you can put in a 100% effort and get a 100% result, or you can put in a 20% effort and get an 80% result. Which, for most people, is good enough. So if those first few pounds that take me to, say, 7st 6lb, "count" more than those last few pounds which would take me to 6st 6lb, I'll settle for that
Gobi,
That seems a very sensible approach. Again, the tables that I listed are Stillman's numbers, which are pretty severe, particularly for women. Horwill takes a rather more reasoned approach, suggesting a trial-and-error approach, finding optimum race weight on the basis of performance rather than a set of tables.
WP,
Whatever you do, *DO NOT* reduce your carb intake. Strongly recommend reducing "bad" fats and increasing carbs as relative percentage of caloric intake.
Gumps,
Great run last night.
Pammie,
Thanks for the detailed feedback - very interested to hear how you get on.
Have been away a week so only just read this thread. Very interesting Marmite.
There's many interesting points made on here. As for FH's formula I think it's a bit extreme to say the least. He'd have me down at around 61/2 stone. The lowest I've been in running is 7st 14 and that was in a stressful period of my life. I ran my marathon pb at around 8st 4 and am presently around 8st 9. So I do have a few pounds to spare and I know they will come off with normal eating and normal marathon training.
As many have said the key is to eat a well balanced low fat diet, but not overeat. I don't think cutting out carbs a very healthy diet as they are a main energy source for a runner surely?
I'm quite a muscular build and know I have quite heavy bones so weigh more than I look. As I already wear size 6-8 clothes I don't think I'd look too good at 7stone or run well at that as I'd be under nourished and unable to sustain the training!
I'll keep reading as there's lots of interesting stuff being posted here.
WelshP - surely it's gonna be tough cutting out carbs and still running? (as mentioned by marmite above) carbs make up such a big part of my diet (maybe too much) and without them I'm rubber. I'm not a veggie or vegan but I do eat a lot of veggie food. trouble is though I tend to eat whatever I make my kids and although I try to make them eat as healthily as possible, there are always wicked temptations hanging round the cupboard!
hilly, are you tall? i weigh about a stone less than you (i am very short) and i can hardly get into 6-8 clothes. i do carry a bit of fat rouny my middle though that I don't know how to shift.
Interesting one. I'm 5'2" and my best times have come when I'm about 7st 4-5lb. At the moment I'm 7st 7lb. Horwill's formula says I should be 93.5 - 99lbs. That's 6st 9.5lbs to 7st 1lb. I look pretty skinny at 7st 2lb (which I dipped down to earlier this year - although interestingly the half marathon I ran later that week felt pretty effortless!).
Can't say I relish the thought of what I'd look like under 7st and I'm not prepared to find out. Buying clothes is hard enough as it is and on someone my size half a stone is probably a dress size...
In my experience the problem is loosing weight whilst eating enough to train.
For various reasons in 1988/9 I lost my surplus 10lb very quickly in a few weeks while only training c 30-40mpw, then when I was at 8st and marathon training I stayed at that weight though I was eating loads. It coincided with a time when I not earning much, and was veggie (which I now believed didn't do my health any favours) but apart from that eating really basicaly and healthily, ie loads of rice, pasta. beans, whatever veg was cheapest, apples - couldn't afford much cheese, interesting fruit, nuts, chocolate, biscuits etc, so the two problems/goals worked together very well. Wanting to loose weight eased the temptation to buy 'junk' food, and having to think about spending every penny made it easier too.
Gobi,
Meant to ask in my last post - when you mentioned that ".....muscle mass which in some ways protects me.....", have you had previous experiences where you've been less well-muscled and tried to sustain the type of training regimen that you do currently, but found you were injured more frequently?
Hilly,
Good to hear from you - been anywhere nice? Totally agree that the numbers do seem to be rather too extreme for females. Seems that Horwill is just citing Stillman and others to make a point, but he does suggest a gentler approach i.e. lose a bit and see how it goes. Also totally agree about carbs - absolutely essential, particular if doing any amount of endurance exercise. Don't think anyone is (seriously) suggesting reducing carbohydrate intake. It seems that finding optimum racing weight is likely to be highly personal owing to a myriad of factors.
TmR,
Reckon you've hit the nail on the head. As you mentioned, if you can get a load of complex carbs and fruit etc inside you and eat less junk too, then fat loss seems inevitable.
For those that haven't looked, the running for fitness site has a weight/performance calculator here weight/performance calculator which some might feel useful
There is some truth in it, but Horwill's big problem is that he isn't a scientist - and can never work out what is the cause and what is the effect. I don't have much time for his rants.
I have been reading this thread with interest having already decided to shed a few pounds for my next marathon attempt.
I'm 5'8" and at the "ideal" 8.5 stone would look skeletal - I got loads of unflattering comments at a previous low of 9.5 stone! I'm going for 10 stone and am really motivated now that I've used Norfolk Womble's calculator. Apparently I'll take 26mins off my time!!!
Well I weighed myself and am just over 15st !!!
Shocked into action, so goodbye chocolate till June 08.
Hello healthy eating.
I wrote a list of the junk food that I can cut out. Nearly had writers cramp in the end...
Serious about attaining this 10k goal time that I mentioned previously of 36.10.
NorfolkWomble, thanks for posting that link
I've seen that calculator before but never taken much notice of it. Based on my recent race times, if I drop 4kg (which would take me to just over 7st, which is a weight I've been OK at in my non-running incarnation) I should be able to run a 1.30 half-marathon and a comfortably sub-3.30 marathon. That should be an incentive.
Lizzie, artificial sweeteners and rice cakes are really no substitute for healthy stuff
Over the past few days, I've had a reality check on the amount of snacking I do, and have been surprised. I really believed that I was eating three meals a day, a post-run mini-meal (usually a 120g flapjack or 500ml of chocolate milkshake) and chocolate at bedtime and that was that. I'm gobsmacked by how much "invisible food" I've been packing away between times.
All this is absolutely fascinating. I'm one of those annoyingly "tiny all over" women but I don't look unhealthy. During my last marathon training I was at my lowest ever weight as an adult, and I did get a few comments from my mum about how small I was. I just couldn't seem to keep the weight on no matter how much I ate. I am not, and have never been, a snacker - I tend to have breakfast, a mid-morning snack of something not generally very healthy, then a decent-sized healthy lunch and a large dinner in the evening. People are generally astounded at the amount I can pack away, so I definitely don't think I under-eat.
I'm 5'1", small-boned and weighed 6 stone 11lb when I ran FLM last year. I took 20 minutes off my previous PB, running 3:23. I can't be sure whether the improvement in my time was down to carrying less weight than usual, or more base mileage under my belt, or an increase in overall mileage during training - or a combination of all of the above. I don't think I was underweight (although some people I'm sure would disagree) as I conceived within a month of finishing FLM when I reduced my training down to about 30 miles a week. Nine months post-birth, I'm pretty much back where I was weight-wise. I have a place for FLM next year but have to say that with all the extra rushing around I do now as a mother, plus the training, I'm slightly concerned that my weight will drop even lower than it did last year. There's only so much I can eat in the course of a day! All my clothes hung off me last year and even a size 0 was big. I think I'm probably closer to 7 stone at the moment and even though I'd love another marathon PB I'm not sure if I want to be as small again as I was last year.
My problem tends to be keeping enough weight on, the opposite of most people's weight issues.
And from what I recall, you're not at all scrawny, Minks. Just very dainty
And evidence that tiny little lassies who do lots of running can have healthy pregnancies and strapping great babies
V-rap, thank you for that. Shame a large number of NHS employees don't support the notion that a relatively low BMI and exercising during pregnancy do NOT automatically mean a low-birthweight baby. I got no end of grief in the early stages of my pregnancy about my body weight, yet my son weighed in at a very healthy 8lb 4oz at birth. I still can't believe that someone as small as me could produce such a large child, especially as hubby is only just 5'10" and built like a whippet.
Totally empathise with the 'finding clothes to fit' dilemma. Even a size 6 is often too big for me - and as others have pointed out, clothes seem to be resized by manufacturers so that all the fat people feel better about 'only' being a size 20 when really they're probably a size 24.
I have to say that I'm naturally the size I am without having to make any effort to stay that way. God knows how small I'd be if I tried to diet. I don't actually own a set of scales so have no idea what I weigh now, but I know I fit comfortably back into clothes I wore pre-pregnancy and most of them are a little too big as they were before, so guess I'm around 7 stone. If I had to watch what I ate to maintain my current weight, I'm not sure I'd realistically be able to sustain it. I love my food and would find it a challenge to have to control my food intake, even if a PB was guaranteed as a result.
I think the women of Minks' stature I know (and I married one, so some experience there) tend to be 'very concentrated' rather than 'tiny little' and often fairly intense, fidgety people. Burning lots of energy just by being themselves...
That's of course a gross generalisation, but I've met quite a few of those concentrated ladies now, and it never ceases to amaze me how much they eat, so they're definately not starving themselves
lol Minks! mrs I gets that just having me around, never mind when the new arrival shows up...
You're absolutely right, KK
And for me, the point of dropping a bit of weight (though not to an unrealistically skeletal level) is to find out for myself what effect it will have on my race times. If it makes as much difference as the weight/time calculator suggests, it'll be worth it because it will take me into a performance bracket I would never be able to reach by training alone.
Others who have posted here ARE on the cusp of being elite athletes, and in that situation why wouldn't they try to gain every advantage possible? Statistically, losing a kilogram in weight is likely to be safer and have far greater performance benefits than taking supplements.
I'm sure elite runners know to the nearest gram the point at which they go from being optimally light to too skinny.
oops.......you didn't mean me !
Always makes me chuckle when you see fat (seriously fat too) cyclists on mega-bucks bikes. Eat less pies and the old bike would have gone quicker !
I just want to see how fast I can go
Gobi