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Beginner-based marathon advice with Mike Gratton
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Hello Mike,
Another nervous first timer here - am capable of running a half in 1:55 at the moment.
My question is x-train related. I am 6 foot but not a 'big/heavy guy' (81kg) - and historically I haven't really had much muscle on arms, shoulders etc, but recently I've started doing some weight type training with a personal trainer. He knows that I am a 'runner' and am in the FLM and so he keeps the focus on ...
1. Core work (fitball etc)
2. Legs for power (lunges with weights etc)
3. Also, upper body work which is giving me a little more definition (which I like!) but we are not talking Mr.T here !
My question is this ...
1. Is this a bad idea generally ? Comments ?
2. If you think it's OK, looking at the training schedule - which is 5 days of running and 2 rest days - how do you suggest I fit this in. At the moment, I go to my sessions once or twice a week during my lunchbreaks for an hour. As a footnote, sometimes the leg/lunge works renders me incapable of running that night really !
I'm not sure that running 5 times and 2 gym sessions a week is a good idea!
Thanks for doing this forum as a volenteer !
Spencer Steel
Thanks for your reply Mike. Its clear I have an awful lot to learn about training and racing and I will be following this thread with interest.
Thanks again.
Mike,
Again a question on 'mix' of training. I'm mid thirties, light framed, circa 11 stone and 6 foot, and I ran the marathon in 1995 in 4.50, (but injured ankle at 6 mile mark, went through 23 mile marker in 3.30, and then twisted ankle again so hobbled to the end!!) Not run competitvely since!
I play hockey every weekend, play tennis once during the week, and so was wondering what type of training i would be 'substituting' these sports for? I'd like to aim for a 3.45 time.
To complicate this, I live in rural Cambs in a small village. Evening runs mean driving to the next town so that I can run under lights!! I also detest running on the treadmill!
thanks
Ian
Hi Spencer,
The strength work in general is agood idea and I don't think two sessions a week is too much if you have the time - I would split it between a circuit training type session incorporating the core stability work and a weight session working on power.
If the power session including the squats affects the running try to either run first or do it on a day when you are not running.
You may want to back off the power session later on when you are increasing the speed and quality of your running and from March just do the circuit or core sessions so you are not overloading on quality work.
Ian,
The tennis and hockey are going to work your more explosive speed ability and the hickey particularly gives a good mix of short sprint and distance covered over the duration of the match. I was a PE teacher during my best running days and I'm sure doing a lot of other sports (hockey included) helped with overall fitness and I seldom got injured despite also running 120 miles a week.
The downside of these activities is that although they will be good overall conditioning you still need to build a good volume of running to get to the continuous aspect of distance running.
Initially build up the distance on your running days so you have at least one run at 2hrs and the others at 1hr duration and let the tennis and hockey take the place of speed work.
However, as you adapt I think you will need to introduce some 'running' speed work in addition to the other sports - a tempo session at marathon speed is vital - building up to 30mins at your marathon pace - and in the last 6 weeks some interval work with efforts of around 2-5mins, typically 800m efforts with 2 to 3 mins recovery will give you speed endurance more appropriate to running than you will get from 10-15sec bursts on the hockey field.
It is possible to incorprate lots of different activities but in the end to be a better runner you do have to run and it is important to see the other sports as part of overall conditioning and not let them replace specific run sessions.
Mike
Got your schedule, thanks for that
I have one question, which I thought I might post on here so people other than just me get the benefit of the reply.
Could you tell me reason for the interval work in the opening weeks? I note after 3 weeks the programme moves into 'pure' base training. Clearly I understand the need for the faster speed work as you begin to peak towards the end of the schedule, I was just interested to know why it is included during weeks 1-3? Would you not lose the benefits after a period of steady miles/hills etc.
No rush for a reply, I just like to know why I am doing stuff!
Cheers
ps - I will then just go off and just do the bloomin' work, promise!
Hi Sue,
Apart from week 3 all the weeks have some component of speed work and I like to keep close to some pace stuff with established runners all the time whether it is intervals or tempo/threshold running so you don't go completely flat. The overall emphasis at the start though is steady mileage.
You need to see week 1 as being not week one but really a continuation of all the training you are currently doing - not sure now why there is no speed work of any kind in week 3 - must have been feeling kind when I wrote it.
Beginners schedules will initially concentrate on building up the miles before running faster so that base endurace and capilliarisation can take happen first so there is a base to build the speed on to.
hi mike...
i think i already know the answer to this question but thought i'd check!
I'm doing Blackpool on the 27th of April and therefore have a couple of extra weeks than those doing London...I've been running but rather sporadically (have no way of telling you my weekly mileage!) should i just start with week one and repeat it until i get to 16 weeks before (i plan on starting the programme on Monday) or start the whole programme and subsitute things later when the inevitable illness/injury/life means i maybe can't follow it as closely?
I'm guessing just start the programme as it will give me longer to increase my mileage?
Thanks,
Katy
(ps i did london this year, but without enough training - got a place at the end of jan - and did 5.30hr...really want to break 4.30, which was my original target, although i wonder if a little ambitious! i can run non stop for an hour, an hour and a half, but not sure what pace!)
Hi Katy,
I would put in 2 weeks of steady mileage to give yourself a bit more base training and then pick up the 16 week plan two weeks late - that way you will hit the speed work and race taper weeks at the right time.
Target setting is very difficult for relative beginners as you will effectively be plucking times out of the air. As the weeks go on and you get a few races in you will be able to start to define a potential finish time.
It is important to try to get an accurate guage of your true potential time for two reasons; a) so that you can set your training pace accordingly, b) you can work out the correct pace to start the marathon on the big day.
It might be that the targets you set yourself now will dramatically change as you start to gather fitness so be prepared to try a few short races (10km is ideal) so that you can start to have an understanding about pace and potential.
thanks mike
think i'm around the 10/11mm mark going from my 1/1 mara, 10k and luton relay time...but will get myself entered in some 10ks!
thank you mike the running has slowed down because of cold as i suffered from asthma i dare not risk cold air although i do aerobics in doors has anybody got COPIES OF AEROBICS FROM OZ THE AUSTRALIAN LADIES as my recordings have been lost they were good exercises if they have i like to borrow tel. 01255 502059 leave message for MALKIT SINGH THANKS IN ADVANCE
Any advice appreciated.
hi Mike,
i am currently doing a 20miler at the weekend, i plan to get as many under my belt as i can. question - it hurts by the end, i am tired is this normal? i run it as slow as i can about 3 hours.
Hi Mike
Due to my "life Schedule" I am unable to do my long run on the traditional Sunday (I am usually too busy to run at all that day). I also cannot run on Thursdays as I just don't have the time.
Could you suggest what days I can do what runs? I'm trying to follow the sub 4 hour schedule from Runner's world (with a bit of tweaking, as I am aiming for a time of around 4 hrs 15, based on my half marathon time). Please if you say stuff like "tempo run" etc, can you explain which one is which! I'm still fairly new to the different running terms, and find the whole thing quite confusing at times!
Also, up until now I've only run 4 times a week, the runner's world schedule says 5, is this adviseable, or should I stick to just 4 times a week, I really don't want to get injured.
Thanks
Susan
Hi Mike
Just a few questions:
1. At what sort of mileage should I be using a Camelbak? I bought one last week but am not sure what sort of distances I should be using them on? Is there a 'rule' as to how much you should drink per mile?
2. Nutrition, what should I be looking to eat during my training? I'm currently trying to incorporate some weight loss in my training as I feel I'd benefit from being half a stone lighter, but is it generally a case of eating low GI carbs such as brown rice/pasta etc on a daily basis or should I mainly stick to these foods before my longer runs? And is it generally ok to be eating these after 6pm if all of my training is done at 6am? I guess I'm wary of putting on weight by eating carbs late at night, I know the old rule is burn more calories than you consume to lose weight, but nutrition seems to be a particularly difficult thing to do right.
3. Gels - When and how often should they be taken, or is it all simply tiral and error? Would say ten miles be the point at which to have one and then every few miles?
Thanks Mike, being totally new to this game it's all somewhat confusing at the best of times!
Hi Andy,
The best thing you can do is to get back into a routine and build up the long run as much as you can so that you start the 16-week schedule off a good base.
Bazzo,
You will adapt - keep it slow for now and gradually you will become more efficient - there is a strong theory that you become more efficient as a runner by doing lots of running and I am in agreement with it.
However, there is a theory that if you do more running and have a basic biomechanical problem you are only going to re-enforce bad practice.
If your slowing down is due to loss of energy then that will improve with training and you will find that you will both get faster and not fade (it won't happen over night though) - if it is due to any physical pain it would be as well to find out what is causing it.
Hi TiggerSC,
Generally the oder that you do the runs is not particularly relevant - you can structure the week as you like as long as you avoid doing hard sessions back-to-back. At your level a long run is a hard session so try to avoid doing a speed session on consecutive days.
Whether 5-days per week is better than 4 depends on where you currently stand in your training development. There is no doubt that as you improve running more frequently will bring further progress. More is not always better, however, and you should make progress gradually and introdue extra sessions when you have adapted to your current training level. To make progress you will then need to either increase the quanty of running or increase the pace but don't be in a hurry to do either.
The main terms are; steady run = run at a pace where you can hold a conversation (60-70% max heart rate), Tempo Run = a general term which means running fairly hard but at a non-specific pace (run as you feel), threshold = run at apace that you can maintain for 1hr in race conditions (this could be 10km through to half marathon pace depending on your ability - or approx 85-87% max heart rate). Then there are specific pace runs, i.e. marathon pace, 10km pace, 5km pace etc.
The term Tempo causes the most confusion as it is non-specific.
Moscowflyer,
It will depend a bit on the temperature but in general you are advised to drink around 500mm an hour up to 750mm per hour on hot days. Having said that there is some research based on elite athletes indicating that it is not necessarily harmful to performance to be slightly dehydrated at the end of runs. For most runners though keeping generally hydrated is a good thing as it will help recovery and on-going training.
Weight control is largely a balance between calories in and calories out. If you keep the calory count the same and increase training you will lose weight since you are using more calories.
You need to maintain your diet at healthy levels of both carbohydrate and protein whilst training hard, which makes dieting difficult, but you can reduce the calorific value of your total intake by increasing the quality of food and reducing fat intake (but maintaining healthy fat intake).
You don't really need gels for runs up to 1hr and probably not for runs up to 1 1/2hrs - there is even a suggestion (and it is how I trained) of doing your long runs as 'fasting runs' i.e. not much breakfast and nothing during the run, to encourage development of efficient fat burning.
The advice of Pete Slater, who is director of Science in Sport who make the only isotonic gels available is on longer runs to take a gel every 30mins to keep glycogen levels topped up.
Whether you drink on the run or take gels on the run or not the most important aspect is a good regular diet high in carbohydrate and plenty of water during the day.
Thanks Mike, I actually take protein shakes after each of my runs and do eat very well in terms of protein, plenty of eggs, turkey, steak, chicken etc. but now my whole outlook on training has changed from being weights orientated, where lots of carbs have never really been essential, to running where they are. My fat intake is never that great, although I take a few fish oil capsules and eat nuts every day to get my intake of good fats. My diet overall is very good, as I said it's just a case of changing it to accomodate the running that's a bit difficult.
Interesting you mention the 'fasting run' as all of my runs are pretty much done on this basis, a cup of coffee and an apple or banana are all I have time for as I'm up at half 5 and out of the door at 6.
Thanks for the advice.
MF
hi evrybody i also run 6am sometimes fasting run sometimes eat a banana but i found that banana gives me acidic tummy i did a 10k i suffered so now most of my morning runs r fasting wether 4miler or sundays long run still trying to increase my speed any suggestion from fellow runners i am 61 yrs old and serious running started only injune 2007. many thanks mike is helpful
Hi Mike,
Thanks for all the the great advice.
I am a first timer and have planned to follow the RW 16 week 3.45 schedule. In order to not destroy my knees as i start the schedule after Christmas i have laid down some base work over the past couple of months, building to 4 runs a week with a long run of 10-12 miles.
However, as i have laid down this base i have noticed that my times, and the effort associated with running the times, has fallen quite rapidly. (8.30min/mile with an average HR of 144 (max 197) over 10 miles).
As I will start the RW schedule the stated long run speeds will be slower than my current pace, with relatively the same HR intensity. Should i slow my pace to match the schedule (in order to build muscle capillaries etc.), or should I change schedules to match my current pace?
Thank you,
Richard.
Malkit,
One of the effects of aging is a loss of power in the muscles. To combat that you could try doing some short sprints after each run when you are totally warmed up. This only need be 4 or 5 sprints over about 80m with a walk back recovery but wiull help your muscles regain some of that lost pace.
Searso,
I think you are in the fortunate position of being a rapid improver - if I was you I would reassess the targets and move up to a schedule that matches your current pace.
Bazzo,
The more long runs you can do between now and the marathon the better - you can do too few long runs but not too many. Most established runners will run up to 20miles every week right through the year unless they have a race - probably doing 30 to 40 long runs in the year.
From the perspective of a less well established runner the key is to run for up to 2hrs regardless of distance covered - durring the winter months my group used to run 2hrs over variable cross country and the distance covered would be determined by how much mud, how many gates to cross etc.
For beginners the target is to get up to 2hrs relatively quickly but not too quickly as the body needs to adapt to accept this amount of running. Initially the long runs are likely to be slow or walk/run to keep the intensity down.
Hi Mike, I am running Lochaber in April, not London. I am currently up to 16 miles on my longest runs. I was hoping to do a couple of 20 milers each month until the race. Would you recommend going over 20 in any of the runs? I have seen some plans where people are running 22 or 23 miles in the build up, but I am worried that this would be too much, and could take too much out of me. I thought 6-7 20 milers in the build up would be OK.
You said in an earlier post that many top runners are doing 20 milers most weeks. How soon after a marathon would you do another 20 miler? Having built up to this level of fitness I was hoping to keep up the mileage to make transition into another marathon later in the year much easier.