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Moraghan Training - Stevie G
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SG - I think it's fair to say that, although it may have been a fairly average performance in terms of time at the GSR, that's probably your finest race report. I felt the tension built through my bones, I doubled over in agony in sympathy with your swelling bladder, and then almost sighed with relief as you micturated heartily in a luckless housing estate, and finally experienced every moment of your increasing fatigue in the latter stages. Sounds like the conditions weren't helpful to you, but still impressively toughed out in the latter stages and a solid sub 60 for the portfolio.
In terms of training, is the threshold or faster reps an either/or situation? I have always tried to structure it in the classic manner, with 1 x tempo/threshold and 1 x reps session per week. Actually, I've been quite slack on tempos for the last year or so, and feel I've probably suffered a bit as a result. But yeah, agree with Ric that you probably need to be regularly running reps at faster than race pace.
What took me to that sub-70 half marathon was maintaining the 5K pace rep sessions, paired with a weekly tempo. I alternated that tempo from week to week - one week it would be less than half the race distance (5-6 miles) at race pace (usually with 3-4 miles warm up and 1-2 miles cooldown), and the next week it would be close to the race distance (10-12 miles) at the next pace down, i.e. marathon pace (after a mile or two warm up). Worked like a f**king dream.
Matt H - good to see you performed well despite calf issues, sounds like a tough day at the office.
Stevie W - massive congratulations on a stonking PB at Abingdon there! What an excellent performance, and to finish with the fastest mile like that is truly impressive. You will definitely run faster, but even so these races where you smash your PB to pieces will be the ones you remember fondest.
Ta chaps, knew I'd get a good set of interesting responses from you all.
Wool - just to clarify, the extra miles would be at the expense of one of the sessions, rather than keeping 3 and still going high
Interesting you mention how hard it looked like I was working In the training, versus my perception that I wasn't doing enough mileage.
Muddy - the 5.50 well, 5.52 was worked off the best achieved 5k this summer versus the Daniels VDOT calc, so no guesswork as such, pure science on this one.
But everything else you say is spot on, perhaps a little generous on the length of the course, as 6 years ago I went 2mins faster and don't remember thinking it was long
Probably not a "disaster" and thus needing too much over analysis - but you know us on here by now
A cooler day and something in the 58s, and it'd have felt a lot better I'm sure.
Phil - I think you nail it, I've done by far my biggest short distance repeated focus ever this year. We're talking pretty much May through to early Sep just looking to race tonnes of short stuff. So I suppose a 10miler is quite a distance step up. I saw it as "easier" than a half marathon, rather than the "quite some way further" than 5ks! You can get away with whatever the weather in a 5k, but the longer the race the more it builds up.
Dachs - ta old son. My commitment to the thread is good bad or average, a full and frank race report. Apart from crossing the line, and that satisfied drive home, it's probably the most enjoyable part of the race experience!!
EOG, a local legendary runner familiar to a few of us, mailed me and said that as he gets older, the tapering is something he finds a bit of a lotto. Said I may not have got that right - and might well storm a future race - here's hoping!
For now, ill recover/ enjoy this little United trip, then as long as 100%, probably build the mileage a bit and have a look at this XC Sunday. Get back amongst the club scene for a reasonably result pressure free run out.
Possibly a couple of road race run outs in the next month too. Doing the odd club session again.
But with an eye on getting back on the 60+ mile weeks with the four key parts - tempo/threshold, faster reps, medium midweek long, and longer long run (14-16).
I quite enjoyed at the start of this year putting some 15milers in on a Thursday pre-work. It allowed Sundays free to race XC, without compromising getting the long run in. It went from 15 feeling quite a bind, to feeling fairly decent near the end, and saw me through a Wokingham I was a bit worried about excellently.
Will dig out some of the old Moz plans to see what rep sessions fit what stage, but also bearing in mind the stuff Aley - on and off forum, and Ric have mentioned.
Will have to look where to put some of those sessions in. Should they wait until back racing short next year, or should I chuck some in while I'm almost "On a freebie" for a few weeks.
Either way, when I decide a "base" period is starting again, I'll probably get back to basics, 65-70mile weeks, tempo of 40mins around 6min miling (what I used to call MP under Moz, but learnt I can legitimately call Threshold now - understanding that 5.52 is rep threshold and it adjusts), and some faster reps, with the 14-16. Look forward to that, as that's what has always made feel powerful and fit.
28 races this year though! Phew! Probably not enough substantial distances though, as only 1xHM, 1x10M, 1x5M and 2-3 XC in the 5-6mixer
Main positive from Sunday (if we can believe that 10k marker), was a 36:30 10k within a 10miler on a warm day, not feeling magical. So that might be worth a late year look at a standalone 10k and see how we go.
Wouldn't get at all down about your GSR; manically big races never easy to run top times in IMO and you were only 1 min away from a very decent result (I appreciate we feel that is a lot at my level, yet alone yours, but really conditions can easily account for that much). Agree with most of the experts on here that to absolutely reach your potential you need regular reps faster than race pace, especially when the race in question is long like GSR (or alternatively run a few parkruns flat out to mimic the same thing, but without the dread factor of soloing a hard track session).
SG, what is the ultimate aim here?
Is it to enjoy your running, and keep churning out decent performances, as you've been doing for a few years? If so, fair enough.
Or is it to get back into shape to threaten your PBs? Because I don't think there's any reason why you can't do that. You're not old enough that there should be any age-related decline. You've performed close enough to your ultimate top level in recent years that the Wycombe Half issues were surely a blip. You know how you got into that kind of shape last time. Something is holding you back from attempting it though.
The latter would be the ideal scenario Dachs.
If I was doing a year's summary now, i'd report 3seconds off the all time 5k pb, and a 3rd quickest HM out of 27 attempts (8secs off the 2nd quickest -with the pb being a fair outlier on a magical day), so from those stats at the short and long end of my range - getting somewhere near shouldn't be impossible.
This race was an attempt at putting in a proper specific big block, but I suppose for a lot of reasons it didn't happen. Getting back to the Moz programme that worked so well isn't a bad idea, but fused with a little bit of fresh thinking.
Always a chance 2012-13 days were the top end, and the 2015 thing has left a slight physical and mental barrier, but not sure.
I know for sure what doesn't suit me, and that's stuff like long-hot-hilly-offroad, any combination of too many of those factors. Wycombe being the big evidence, and last year's Runnymede Relay being close to that. GSR being a little along those lines, but more in keeping with a hard effort and needing a lie down after - but then walking away fine.
Pete - a good venue for sure. One a bit too soon, and the day before an XC, and one the day of both Handy Cross XC and Victory 5.
A 5m-10k fast course itself might make good sense later this year though.
'Apart from crossing the line, and that satisfied drive home, it's probably the most enjoyable part of the race experience!!' - Think you're missing one vital part of the day..the pub (obviously not if youre driving though!). Sub 60 is still OK though on a bit of an off day, like Dachs said, tempos are vital for road races, problem is that they are bloody horrible. Done the GSR a few times, got fed up with it, never had a stormer there really. MH - Good little run round, glad you're getting back into it
Petem - Great 10K time, good work there. SteveW - wow, that last mile is nuts! good signs for the future. You were just infront of my training partner, Lee from Dunstable - well he did 2.59.
Decent day out for me at the Southern xc relays at Wormwood scrubs. Mike set me off in 4th (cheers mate!) on 2nd leg on this 5k, flat ish xc course. Well it is short anyway.
As expected, a few flew past me, some effortlessly and some with as bad a running style as I. But felt that I was going OK, felt better than last weeks windy sauna. Coming round and down to the finish, I ended up with 15.21 - most had the course at 4.7k, so I'd make that around 16.15 for the 5K, which I'd take over uneven, albeit dry ground. We ended up in 9th overall, not too bad.
Managed 15 miles Sunday on my old Hoka's got some more from Pro direct within 36 hours of ordering them, as I decided that me and my hip flexors couldn't take any more miles in the old ones - £48 quid though..bargain..) Nothing yesterday, just got back from 8 Primrose Hill reps. Back on it for the autumn (sighs!)..
SG -don't over analyse it. You just had a (relative) bad day. Your recent training is more than adequate for a faster time, without any further specificity or fine tuning of paces - even I did a 58:44 there and my training plan is about as unscientific as you can get! I had a good day is all. If you did it again this Sunday, you might take a minute off! A bit of racing longer distances may have helped with the warm temperatures on the day, but who knows
SWH - congratulations and stunningly executed. Most impressed with that negative split and final mile!
As for me, I'm bimbling about in the Lakes this week, so not big miles but lots of climbing!
Simon C - HA! laughed when you said the most important part of racing is the Pub! i think the only reason you race is its a free out for some lagers!! Congrats on the xc relays and a decent time.
Pete, Muddy and Matt H - nice work on your races too.
SG- Its been said a number of times already but you became a bit of a "Wendy One Pace".
You have a strong base of threshold now, i would be adding to it not backing off and adding easy miles as a comfort blanket. adding in another ~10miles to your plan at easy pace isnt going to reap the same rewards as working harder at a fast pace. i think Ric suggestions of a few sessions to try was on the money.
For you, i would go down the route of simon/Ric who would do 30*200. Faster pace than mile reps and enough of them so they arent a doddle. I would go after 1k reps and aim for v close to 3mins as Aley suggested.
Also the 5*1m in the week before a race would have killed some of your legs imo...no way would i ever have done that in a big race build up. Plus you ran them faster than the times given. if it takes 10 days for adaption of a training session they certainly wouldnt have helped.
All that said
Midlands XC relays for me last saturday. Was hot
SG - I'd echo what Dachs said about tempo runs. In my limited experience I find them really worthwhile physically and mentally. My coach is a massive fan of them as well. He races a 5k and does a weekly 10m tempo throughout the winter
Are you on Strava? We've got a thread 'club' on there.
Pete - good to see you get a good 10km in at the weekend. Sorry, I missed your report! What's next on for you?
Muddy, Dean and SC - well done for each of your races. I think the reasonable XC weather will be soon gone, noticeably cooler today. Dean, hope the ankle is alright!
Really interesting to read the thoughts regarding SG's training. I also think the single training pace may have played a part, but it's one of those where what works well for some doesn't always work for someone else - the fresh training approach was certainly interesting to follow, and I too think the threshold base will offer scope for building upon!
SG, are you thinking of doing to Victory 5 to see out the year? A good opportunity for a rampage if you do - not too long either
Definitely agree with different training working for different people. I averaged 45 miles a week for Abingdon with my peak being 57. That wouldn't work for a lot of people!
As if I can do any of that at the moment myself.
🙂
How are you getting on? Still plugging the consistent miles?
StevieWh, yes, that is me! Sent you an invite to the group/club or whatever Strava calls it.
Meanwhile I'm once again proving to myself I'm a lot better on a bike than on foot.
Strava segments are quite telling. If running has 100's involved, cycling has 1000's.
🙂
Stevie G said:
Ric’s session with the hills above reminds me of my favourite way to work in the threshold zone - a quarter of a mile working up a hill at threshold effort, down ‘recovering’ at marathon effort, no stopping. Build the number of loops from 6 to 10, then go to 2 lots of 6 with a couple of minutes of recovery in between. At 12 reps you’re doing around 10k of decent effort. The downhills at marathon effort are great for turnover too.
Best of luck Reg. I forgot to comment on the heel pad - I'll be interested to see how it goes. A long while back at the start of my running a physio measured me up and said something similar - a 15 mm difference - and advised not to run more than 15 miles a week. Thankfully another physio scoffed at that and said while there was a difference a lot of it was probably a functional difference i.e. based on pelvis alignment and balance. I do a lot of work around that area (oo-err) and the only extra help I've needed is when shoes get worn, I stick an extra insole in the shorter leg.
Muddy - I think getting my Hydration and Fueling right definitely contributed to the strong finish. I'd been warned that there wasn't as much water available on course as say London and that some of it was in cups. Made sure I took a bottle from every station available and carried it with me to sip on, also took 2 Electrolyte/Salt capsules every hour to keep the salts topped up.
I recently changed my HR strap as my old one wasn't very comfortable and also had started giving false readings. 209 in a warm up jog! Have been wearing it on most of my runs but I still don't find it 100% comfortable so decided to leave it off for the marathon. Will be wearing it in a few future races to get a better idea on HRs
Cheers Dean -The pub after is the only thing that gets me through the xc season!
Muddy - Hills without stopping are quite intense aren't they. I always try to, but the Primrose Hill rep I do is so steep that after the fast 80m flat bit I just need to walk for about 20m. I suppose to try and keep the quality there, otherwise it would just go to pot.
I checked out the new landscaped lake thingey near my house on Monday, all fenced with gates and dogs have to be on leads as there are sheep roaming. Looks great for reps - I'm really quite lucky with a track literally on my doorstep too
I feel that sometimes there's a little too much store placed at the numbers prescribed by xy & z and because 2 + 2 = 4, a schedule will = ABC
It won't.
We're dealing in physiology, not spreadsheets. We're human, not part of some computer matrix.
It's an inexact science, a dark art even.
Worth considering when fretting about missing a target split time when doing mile reps on Chesil beach at night into a gale force storm.
🙂
Perfect weather greeted the start of the Simplyhealth Great South Run 10 mile event in Portsmouth over the weekend.
https://www.runbritain.com/news/biggest-race-of-the-weekend-sees-perfect-seaside-weather-and-numerous-pbs-in-portsmouth?page=1&pagesize=7&from=&to=&range=Latest
Not sure what the elite women were playing at?
Maybe they were training for the London Marathon when a slower pace enables them like the masses to eat, drink and up-date their facebook profiles while on the move. Who knows?
One day the organisers will provide everything during such events.
I visualise a time when sofas, beds and armchairs are provided en-route along with huge numbers of psychologists (thousands of them at Uni) to help the stressed out runners of modern Britain to come to terms with...finding the servers are down.
🙂
It was nearly perfect wasn't it? A bit of cloud cover would have been nicer I suppose. Loads of people saying it was 'hot' - which was a bit over the top. What was it 11-12 degrees during the race?
SG - Was it that bad?
Obvs not whatever the summer was, but then we weren't trying to race 10milers
I'm glad Matt was down there as otherwise it'd sound like i was making it up
Glad to hear "loads" of people saying it's hot as well then!
When they say "perfect" I think they're meaning 2 things - no real wind, which is rare down there, and "great" to watch. Yes, I can believe it would have been lovely to watch!
All inthough, obvs some on the warmth, and some on me.
Either way, let's forget about it all now - it's been absolutely picked to death
I definitely think it was up around 17/18°C no bother - especially when exposed on the final eastward stretch!
Should have been drinking in a beer garden, not running
Most likely it'll soon be back to moaning at how cold and windy it is
It's funny with conditions - we had some chuckles at the Handy Cross XC recently, Dean and northern Matt not unreasonably saying it looked a right doss from the vid footage. Similarly, the Marlow half looks a nice gentle jog out from the footage. To actually race though, both are really hard work.
I'm guilty of it too, i saw a well known local runner post a pic of what looked a perfectly smooth flat road with a tiny puddle at the edge and name it something like "dodging heavy puddles" with no irony
We move on to run another day though. Legs feel a little lacking at the mo, and have some slight aches the upper side of chest. Nothing to worry about, probably just progressing from the usual tight shoulders etc. Foot ache has gone thank goodness, as that was very unusual.
20 degrees? Leave it out! what time did it start? I don't know, some folk are never happy - they'll all be hoping for the howling gale back again next year! Conditions - yes, well I know about the mickey take regarding the xc course in Derry - all those leaves!!!!
Not like me to moan about the weather much when it comes to running though
If it makes you feel better just say all of us pleading "conditions" are just BS blaggers trying to mask our own sh!T performances with made up accounts
Literally no more to say about GSR now, am absolutely knackered over it
No, I believe you...
Nothing wrong in excuses though. I usually have mine ready before the race, let alone after
Probably depends on how individuals cope with heat. I've certainly heard people who ran GSR describe the conditions as 'perfect', but equally there are those for whom it was too hot. 20 degrees certainly isn't optimal for that kind of distance.
I will never complain about puddles again after the Yeovil Easter Bunny 10K this year, where torrential rain had resulted in a "puddle" 100m long and thigh deep.
Yes, the abuse we got after our description of the surface in Derry was withering. Not nearly as annoying to me though as I had had the week before, when complaints by me and many runners (including the likes of Steve Way) about having to basically run a fell race in the Hampshire League, were greeted by derision from all the former 70s superheroes on Facebook, since it would apparently have been a bog-standard XC in their day, despite that clearly being unmitigated bullshit.
Dean, storming run and excellent silverware-snatching at the relays. Simon, likewise a handy performance for HHH. I quite fancied the XC relays, but I was elsewhere in London watching my youngest play rugby at Saracens, on the fancy proper pitch and everything.
Also forgot Pete and the Fleet 10K, glad to see you're back in the zone you're happy with.