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The Middle Ground
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Duck, Razter and other sciency types...
I was reading about that 1500m athlete who got banned for some directic as its often used by those taking EPO. Anyway, was interested to note a claim made on several of websites looknig at the effects of EPO. Namely that well trained athletes are more dehydration resistant.
Can anyone explain or verify why that would be?
Thinking of use of sports drinks and water in beginners versus established runners...
Doing York parkrun Aug 11th even if I have to hobble round.. Be good if the Yorks contingent could make it.
PRF - can you advise me. I'm registered for Parkrun - ran Cardiff Blackweir in 2008. Despite the lapse of time I don't need to reregister, but I believe Ido need to get a barcode to produce on the day...how do I download this?
From a man who thinks his fast twitch fibres need a bit of a jolt!!
Tom: http://www.parkrun.com/runner/getbarcodelink/uk
I hope! Wanting a barcode sounds ominous!
I've managed to workout how to apply....Unfortunately my email address has changed since then, so I've sent them additional information to be identified.
I'm up in London for next two weeks for the Olympics. Normally when I'm there (Kilburn) I do routes round Regents Park, Queen Park and Willesden Park. However both Wormwood Scrubs and Parlie Hill are only 2-3 miles from the front door and both have Parkruns - so I'll probably jog up in the week to reccie them.
If PRF hasn't run either of those, then that would be an additional incentive!
Tom: I would ask who knows the flattest parkrun in the area! What are you seeing at the Olympics? I've got some hockey and one morning of the athletics. Will be staying in Watford as hotels are cheaper and there is a direct (free) train.
Val and I have tickets for two athletic afternoon sessions - Womens 10000m final and mens 1500m, both the cheapest seats...how jammy is that. I also applied for all the morning sessions at OAP discount (arghhh!) and got nothing. I suppose if I want wall to wall live athletics I'll have to wait until 2017, but that will be some week.
In addition the family (whoever happens to be there, but no Bulgarians please!) are all heading down to Hyde Park and Victoria Park to view events on the big screen and take part in other outdoor activites. We'll also have a couple of afternoons on the Southbank.
nb, the Bulgarian reference relates to the time that we rented the flat to two very nice Bulgarian couples and ended up with half the population of Sophia living there.
Hopefully it won't be quite as hot as today, as my 8mile run today was between 45secs-1minute slower per mile due to taking it easy in the heat...
Tom - Did you get your barcode sorted?
And sorry to disappoint but Wormwood and Hampstead are both on this list.
They're both quite tough actually, for different reasons, so dont expect times to be representative of your fitness level.
Dash - Hoping to be there on the 11th at York before heading down for the Men's Marathon on the12th.
Curly - The 17:43 on Sunday was the equivalent of the 17:25 at Hull. So, yes, back to around peak comeback times but this isnt the purple patch yet....that comes in August
And, no, didnt get to chat to Mr Evans apart from exchanging pleasantries. But I did get to chat to forever so that made up for it.
Duck - Nice to see you espousing the virtues of regular parkrunning
As for most people, tonight was pretty hot and sticky so probably not the best conditions for tackling my first ever 3,000m. I didnt even expect to be running 3,000 until mid afternoon, before then I was expecting a 1500m but it turned out that the scheduling put the 1500m late in the evening so we agreed to have a crack at the 3,000 instead.
Myself and Tom Williams agreed to have a go at maintaining 81 secs/lap, which based on 78 sec laps in the mile last week seemed reasonable for me as a potentially hard but manageable sort of pace.
The first 5 laps were pretty much all 81 secs but the humid conditions made it tough going in the final third. The pace drifted away a little and Tom's shorter speedwork paid off as he came through on the final lap to record 10:20 to my 10:24....but I would say that we both got exactly what we wanted out ofthe event and wont be less fit as a result! A 78.1% WAVA for the first attempt at a distance is a good starting point.
So that was the 25th race in 54 days.......the 26th is tomorrow, The Laxton 10K, a 'flat, fast and definite PB course'. More my sort of distance.....
Good racing prf... you could certanly teach Bradley Wiggins a thing or two about putting in a sustained effort over a prolonged period!
Was looking to see if there was a world record for most races, but couldn't find anything other than some guy who ran 113 marathons in a year, also found this which might be a target somebody wants to go for:
The greatest average mileage run daily is 61.87 km (38.44 miles) and was achieved by Tirtha Kumar Phani (India), from 30 June 2006 to 29 June 2007, in Calcutta, India. Tirtha Kumar Phani of Calcutta, India ran every day, running 22,581.09 km (14,031.15 miles) in total YP - perhaps next year after the 2012 for this!!
I'm currently nursing a bit of a bug at the moment, have felt like something has been lingering for a while (random sore throats being the indicator) and have now come out a bit snotty.. but as its above the neck have kept on keeping on - which probably isn't helping to shift it.
One thing I've certanly noticed during this comeback, and I guess thats where old age is playing its part, is just how long it takes to recover from a hard effort. Following the parkrun CPB, on Sunday, I went out for 10.5 (new long-run high) and my legs were absolutley shot - followed that up with 5 on Monday and with the heat and tired legs only managed 08:17avpm and it was a bit of a slog. Rested today and if my nasal cavities don't get too blocked going to have a run out with the club tonight, which usually involves some hard effort at some point. Membership form and cheque are filled in, so all going well I'll be a paid up club member again for my next race, and can drop the unattached monicar!
Enjoy the weather all, personally I'm missing the mud a little bit!!.
Good racing in the heat PRF - I dont know how you run like that in those conditions!!!
Tom there is also Gladstone...which I dont think PRF has done! I heard rumours about a paddington Rec ground one once but it never happened. Highbury Fields is your closest tarmac one - but its a 5 lapper kenyan hill session with all the fun of lapping all the slowbies...
Jealous of all your tickets! I've just managed to snag some £20 canoe sprints at Dorney Lake (not far from us), there is still stuff available for athletics but sadly I dont have £450 each for tickets!
Good longest coeback run Darola and I hope the recovery comes soon. Are you running them a bit too fast perhaps? That always seems to affect my recovery. Am sure being a club member again will help spur you on.
YP it was boiling yesterday - a sensible decision to take the run easier.
Shorter club session last night as the park was roasting. 3 person relay over 400m ish (grass or track as it was a triangle), run one, rest for two.
Overall time for the whoe session was 26 miuntes (versus the planned 26 minute efforts each) so the paces were pretty pacey. We have gone up to the next speedier group as we felt a little unfair on the slower group as we were mile in front but of course now we are right at the back, but luckily picked a 3rd team member who is also of similar standard.
Overall effort time was just over 8 minutes, which shows that my efforts were the fastes of our team. 1.4miles of effort in total at 5:59
Get in. A speed session rather than speed endurance due to the long recovery, but actually a known weakness of mine and I feel fine today so even though total volume was high I am happy it was about the correct level.
Darola ... like Curly, I also wondered whether you were running a bit too fast. It was where you said "only managed 08:17avpm " ... aside from my five sub-LT sessions, my fastest pace this month has been 8:40/m (and it can be at 9:30ish on many days).
Nice session Curly.
Another good race PRF!
I need to rest my running legs today and need to squeeze in at least one cycle this week, so have brought my bike to work in the car ... plan is a lunchtime ride ... but as yet I have no idea where to go
.
Curly, the only thing I can think of re: dehydration would be more running = greater water retention. Water obviously has weight so the less you can drink before running a race would theoretically = faster times.
I suppose also that beginners, when they sweat, lose many of the bodies' natural minerals etc through sweat, yet the more you sweat the more efficient you become so the loss is considerably less.
Would last night's sesion be around mile pace? That's a fair volume for that kind of intensity.
prf, speaking of tough parkrun courses Camperdown parkrun is apparently about 2 minutes slower than a flat course for the 18-20 minute runner. I was considering running it before the year is out to see what it's like.
Nice 3k last night! Also, small world as you were in the same race as Elspeth Curran who I know from Glasgow
Was wanting to do 4*800 today but I'm shifting it to tomorrow, as I'm feeling a bit jaded after 5 quality sessions/races in the last 10 days. I'm not feeling burnt out, but a few extra easy days will make sure I don't get to that stage.
A pretty easy paced 17.26M on the bike on a very hilly route. Oh, and I fell off right at the top of the biggest climb
... unclipped my right shoe from the pedal as I reached the junction, then decided to change direction and cut through a car park but had no momentum - I just needed to put my left foot on the floor but realised (too late) it was still clipped into the pedal. First such incident for over a year ... should have a whopping bruise my the morning
. But otherwise a good run out aimed at providing a bit of confidence for Sunday's 14.5M hilly Tri stage.
PRF - Good effort at the 3k. It's always tough racing in those kind of conditions. Nice to see the old legs can still tick over at a nippy pace when required
Dan - Unlucky but good practice for the weekend. Don't be falling off in the actual race....
Dash - I plan to be there on the 11th.
Curly - Looks a good session and plenty of volume. All you've got to do is translate that into race pace and you're sorted
Darola - Might not neccesarily be an age thing but just your body getting used to running again. My recovery still continues to improve even in my 4th (ish) year of running.
A busy week for me last week and felt pretty ropey for most of it. Ground out 60 miles of running but dropped all faster stuff. Made the error of trying to do 10 @ MP yesterday in the heat whilst still not feeling 100%. Proved a mistake as I managed 5 miles at that pace and had a struggle just jogging the 3 miles home!
unlucky Dan! How much benefit do the clipped pedals give you?
Tough times in the heat Mr V, what pace did your 5 come out as?
Did 5M @ 8:00/m excatly so more miles bagged. I have a medical tomorrow (mandatory as part of re-registering with my usual surgery) so it'll be interesting to see what the vitals are.
Curley - shame about Paddington Rec as it's less than a mile from the Kilburn flat. The track there is where Bannister did most of his pre 4min mile training ...during his lunchtime!. I have, again back in the 70s when I worked in Hammersmith, run round Wormwood Scrubs a few times...I recall it being pretty flat, which might make up for the grass/trails surface. To be honest, at my current speed it shouldn't make much difference.
Curly, anecdotally I have noticed that beginners seem to at least think they need a lot more water. Note slower runners at parkruns with their donut bottles whereas I am quite happy to do about 90 minutes in this weather without a drink.
I would definitely class your session as speed endurance rather than speed.
It actually sounds like a pretty good MD session. What pace do you reckon that was for you? Probably somewhere between 800 and 1500 I would have thought.
Duck, I did find it quite tough. I knew i was quite capable of running for longer, but I really didn't want to and was glad when I had finished. I think I am tuned in to hurting for much less time.
YP, I'll see you Saturday then. Are you planning on going for a particular time?
PRF, well done on your first 3000. I think 3 seconds/lap is a very ambitious drop off from 1 mile - 3k. It exceeds Frank's 4-second rule which is supposed to be more like 5 seconds for non-elites.
I may well be running my first 3000 tonight. It may also be my last 800 of the year. The goal is to beat Duck's time
Darola, yes, why the "only"? 8:17/mile should be at the faster end of easy running for you IMO.
Tickets? Heh heh. I have the men's 200m final; men's 800m final; men's triple jump final and the ladies' javelin final. Also some tae kwon do tickets. Even though I know nothing about the sport it is surely fun to watch people get kicked in the head.
I preferred the old weather myself.
Its pretty flat but rutted so just watch your feet
Cardiff is brilliant
Since everyone is in town,who is around for thread meet-up on Sunday 5th?
Curly
PRF
...
Ha ha Simon pure speed as in faster than I ever run, not pure speed from an MD perspective of course! Yes somewhere between 1k and 1500m pace I think, my mile pb is 6:16 I believe, but I have only run it three times so would have expected at my best to be sub 6ish. Now I would expect it to be around 6:15-6:20 mark.
Good luck with the smackdown by proxy (i.e. when the other person isnt there) tonight!
Stop showing off about your tickets
The real difficulty here (something which I've always struggled with) is disassociating what you have been capable of in the past with your present level of performance. This is a strong case I think for the use of a HRM (what was that you said BR?). However once I've got my steady running under control and can read my pace, then it's onto training by perceived effort. At the moment it's all pretty hit and miss (obviously not helped by any current race performance to benchmark current fitness levels), but no doubt it will resolve it's self in due course.
No fair Simon! I need to find an 800 but there are basically no opprtunities up here unless I want to go to Livingston on my birthday
I think i could have a shot at sub-2:10 right now.
I'm really hoping I can stay for that 800 the following Monday. I'm getting a more definate idea of how long I will be in London for, I'm confident right now that I can be there until Saturday 11th at least.
Anyway hope you get the time you want (said through gritted teeth
)
As for the Horwill drop off, mine is more like 8 seconds
hope you dont mind me joining this debate, 45 in Nov and done 4.22.1 for 1500 and 2.12.5 for 800 this season, 8s are a bit weak, thought I could manage sub 2.10 but its harder than it looks, still hsve the belief I can do it,
Tackled a one off steeplechase in 10.45.
Any tips for sub 2.10 800, last one went through 400 in 65
Can't put a number on it but it's much easier and safer being attached to the pedal (except when you stop at a junction and forget ... today was only the 3rd time).
Did I mention we have tickets for the volleyball
! And it's not even beach volleyball
. But we're also going to try to watch the triathlon from the streets
.
prf - you are without doubt a racing machine! just reading about that 3000m, in this heat, makes me feel exhausted..
Curly - sounds like a fun session you did last night, and the paces are pretty speedy.
Dr Dan - Nice bike ride, and hope the bruising isn't too bad!
Mr V - sorry to hear you've been feeling ropey. I find running 10m @ MP incredibly hard in any conditions, never mind this heat.
Duck - good luck with the medical. I'm guessing you are still a bit too young to have to bend over and cough?
Simon - I'm not yet decided whether to go for a specific target time on Saturday, and may wait till the day to decide. Having said that, I dug out the WAVA calculator, and have worked out that a 71% WAVA is 19:14, and a 72% WAVA is 18:58.....
Another hot and sticky 7 miles for me this morning on the way into work. Lovely run along the river Wandle and the Thames , but still blooming hot, even at 7am.
Dan i'll be there for the triathlon too. Still not where where exactly we'll be but we're planning on getting there early to get a good spot.
Sawny, go through 400 faster?
If it's basic speed holding you back (say 59/60 400 speed) then it might be worth focusing some time on getting your 400 time down.
i think its confidence to get lactic pain, did 3 x 400 with 3 mins recovery in training recently in 60 secs tough tough session, need to go through 400 in 62 and hang on
No disrespect to anyone of course!
Tom - Just find someone to be competitive against, they dont even have to know you're after them. Keep battling that person until they are eating your dust and then pick the next target. Previous times will soon become irrelevant as it is getting the competitive juices flowing again which is the addictive part.
And no, I havent done Cardiff........YET!
Simon - You're right about the drop offs between 1 mile and 3000 lap times but the mile last week had felt too cautious so it felt reasonable to have a go at squeezing the difference down to 3 secs.
Curly - Women's marathon on the 5th, Men's on the 12th......the Men's is the one I have a ticket for but planning on being there on the 11th as well.
Laxton 10K tonight - Very humid conditions to the point where I'd had enough by half way but it was difficult to know whether I would have felt the humidity as much if I had been on fresher legs.
The main motivation to keep going was simply that it must have been just as hard for everyone else and sure enough I actually gained a place to go from 15th to 14th in the second half.
It felt like one that was tough but just the sort of effort that will reap benefits at Chester.
Splits were 5:45, 5:50, 6:04, 6:12, 6:09, 6:06 - 37:35