The Middle Ground

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  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    edited February 17
    well done Andrew, decent effort. Can't do much about the measurement, better to look at your average pace.

    A surprisingly decent outcome for me with 18.26 and 2nd place. 2 seconds off my pb which was pleading as I can count on 1 hand the amount of sessions I've done since early December. plusmissing out on running in January. I was waiting to blow up but held reasonably firm. 

    Just had official result confirming the above but also advising of a 75.14 wava, which is one of this year's targets met.
  • alehousealehouse ✭✭✭
    Well done both of you, DT and AD! Lots more to come! 

    Been a lot going on here health-wise: will hopefully update in a few days!
    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • AndrewDAndrewD ✭✭✭
    Well done DT!

    Thanks Alehouse, hopefully nothing serious that you will be reporting!
  • AndrewDAndrewD ✭✭✭
    Did a short 4 mile leg shake out yesterday, which all felt fine. Have now caught daughter's cold, bleugh. Day off today before some intervals planned for tomorrow night (4 x 800m).
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Thanks, Alehouse. As Andrew says, I hope it's nothing too serious?

    I managed my first 20 of the year yesterday. Started off a bit sluggish then I had a bit of downhill at around 5 miles and that just gave me some momentum that lasted the next 15 miles, ended up with 7.43 average pace and whilst obviously tired, I had no overwhelming desire to stop or slow.

    Just a spin class today to loosen the legs off.

  • JGavJGav ✭✭✭
    Back from a week of skiing (well 3 days of actual skiing as I caught a full blown tonsillitis involving a very high temp).  Did a slow 30 mins at lunch, still not fully better so will just keep things light this week until hitting normal volumes next week.

    Good to see you all keeping going nicely this Feb.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    J-Gav, that's a shame being ill when away like that. Take it easy for a bit as tonsillitis and knock you about for a good couple of weeks.

    I've been ticking over following sundays 20. Legs were a bit stiff Monday so did an easy 20 minutes on the treadmill followed by spin then yesterday I did a very slow 5 at lunchtime then an interval session in the evening. Will have a run free day today.

  • AndrewDAndrewD ✭✭✭

    Tonsillitis sounds horrible JGav - hopefully you are shot of it now?

    Did my intervals session last night - was actually only 3x800 (not 4x as I said above). First two reps felt good, third felt a bit horrible, but I do have a cold/cough at the moment so breathing isn't perfect at the moment! Paces for the reps were 6:41, 6.28; 6:28.

  • alehousealehouse ✭✭✭

    So, as promised, an update! Hope you are sitting comfortably...it is a long read!


    Jan 12th, saw consultant re Achilles and he gave the go ahead to up the running, gradually. Complained to him about some back pain which I had been having for a few days and he said get back to him if it didn’t go away. Sufficiently uncomfortable to get stuck on his couch and he had to help me off!  

    Fast forward to Jan 29 when I went to see the GP as I had the beginnings of yet another chest infection, plus the back pain had worsened. After some discussion she phoned the local A&E and told them she was sending me to see them as she was concerned about the fourth or fifth chest infection in three months and was something more sinister going on. She then phoned a taxi firm and told me to leave my car.

    Six hours later and I had had a full battery of tests including bloods, x-rays, scans etc. Was called in to see a chest consultant who said that everything was fine with the chest, no infections and better than pretty well everybody he sees of my age and even ten years younger. I asked him about the back, knowing that the scan would cover both front and back: “I’m a chest guy so I haven’t looked at that!” I asked him if he kindly could have a glance.

    Two minutes later the chest guy came back to say that “This changes everything! You have an acute fracture at T7!” No wonder I had been in pain!
    I asked what that meant and he said I would have to discuss it with my GP, which Idid the next day when she phoned me on her day off to ask how I had got on. She told me to come and see her on the 31
    st January. She suggested that I get back to my Achilles consultant and also to get an appointment with my cancer consultant to see if it was related to the prostate cancer that was treated 5 years ago or to some other cancer affecting the bones.

    Saw both consultants in the first week of Feb. Achilles/back consultant looked at scans and the scan report and said it would be 10 to 12 weeks from the date of the break before the fracture was healed, although we can only surmise when the damage was caused, which I will do below! He was concerned that the report said that I was osteopenic, i.e. early stages of osteoporosis. Blood tests were taken and he phone 48 hours later with the results and his suggestion. Calcium levels were fine but vitamin D level was very low and he prescribed major doses of Vit D for 6 weeks (high strength not available on the NHS, which would have been free at my age!). To see physio in a couple of weeks (which I did and have commenced hydrotherapy).
    Saw oncologist who was not concerned and sent me back to the GP for her to organise bone density scans. Still waiting for that appointment.

    So, how did the fracture happen? Can only speculate, but I have over the years had neck pain at various times, and when I get this I go to see an osteopath. I was getting neck pain in November and have been seeing the osteopath who has been working on my neck and back, and did so on January 3
    rd and 19th. Some of the work on the back has been quite severe, leaving me in pain whilst in the clinic, and afterwards: little surprise if he has been working on a back that is both osteopenic and fractured...or did he cause the fracture given that there have been no falls or accidents? Wonder what a solicitor might make of things!

     So, no running to report and the only exercise has been gentle work on the exercise bike and the Achilles exercises. Now allowed gentle swimming.

    Sorry to be so long-winded and please don’t offer sympathy! One of those frustrating things! Hope to be able to post some running by Easter!  Won't really have run since last June with the Achilles injury. Any advice about what to do about the osteopath would be helpful!


    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • AndrewDAndrewD ✭✭✭
    Wow Alehouse, sounds like a lot to deal with in the past few weeks. Did they get to the bottom of the repeated chest infection type symptoms (or were these caused by the fracture)? Hope the recovery from the fracture is quick. I would be looking into seeing a solicitor to see if it was possible that the osteopath caused the fracture too.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    edited February 21

    Alehouse, what a nightmare. Though I must confess as the story unfolded and there was talk of oncologists etc I was happy to get to the end and find that there was nothing sinister in terms of your general health.

    It isn't my area of law, but it certainly sounds like a scenario that a medical negligence solicitor would be interested in exploring further

    Nice intervals, Andrew.

    I had tonsillitis in 2012. I used to get it a fair bit as a child. It's a very different condition as an adult and wiped me out for a good 5 days. Felt much like what I remember flu to feel like.

  • JGavJGav ✭✭✭
    Feeling better now, ramping up training load slowly this week though went and did a big session on the track last night.

    4x3mins @10k pace then 6mins @ threshold
    2x3mins @10k pace then 6mins @ threshold

    The shorter sections were around 6.10mm
    The longer sections were both exactly 7mm

    That second one felt hard as the fatigue was really kicking in.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    I am still keen to see what you can do in a race, jgav. If 10k pace is 6.10, then  for me threshold would be just under 6.20. I would really get something in asap, even a parkrun just to get a firm idea of where your fitness and paces sit. Good session eitherway though.

    Gym night last night, planning a mp session over lunch.

  • AndrewDAndrewD ✭✭✭

    Yes, good session JGav (although I agree with DT over the 'branding' of your paces!).

    I just did an easy 5 miler last night. Left foot/ankle felt a bit stiff last night and is still a little tender today, so I am keeping a weathered eye on it before deciding how to attack my run this evening. It is supposed to be 3.5 miles at tempo.

  • JGavJGav ✭✭✭
    DT19 said:

    I am still keen to see what you can do in a race, jgav. If 10k pace is 6.10, then  for me threshold would be just under 6.20. I would really get something in asap, even a parkrun just to get a firm idea of where your fitness and paces sit. Good session eitherway though.

    Gym night last night, planning a mp session over lunch.


    Maybe the naming of the paces is off again.  The 3 min blocks were supposed to be me hitting V02max and fatigue the legs before the real work of the 6 min block.  The last 6 min block is a simulation of 2/3 race distance (10k or HM), i.e. can you sit in and keep the pace up on tired legs with HR getting towards high Z4.  I need to book in a 5k and 10k, may do one on Sat as the kids are staying at grandparents.
  • AndrewDAndrewD ✭✭✭

    Does sound like a hard session! Definitely do a race though, then you can figure out your exact pace zones. If you did a 5k on Saturday, what time would you expect to do?

    My parkrun on Saturday just confirmed to me that I am training at the correct paces at the moment, so I haven't changed them yet despite feeling like maybe I could manage with slightly faster paces.

    I follow the adage of "train to your current fitness, not your target fitness"!


  • JGavJGav ✭✭✭
    AndrewD said:

    Does sound like a hard session! Definitely do a race though, then you can figure out your exact pace zones. If you did a 5k on Saturday, what time would you expect to do?

    My parkrun on Saturday just confirmed to me that I am training at the correct paces at the moment, so I haven't changed them yet despite feeling like maybe I could manage with slightly faster paces.

    I follow the adage of "train to your current fitness, not your target fitness"!


    If it was flat and on good paths, then I would aim for a 19:5X.  I would have to run to my local parkrun (approx 4k) and it's round a lake on muddy paths, so would happy to go under 21.

    I figure if I can hit those paces in training, then why not, legs aren't trash today just a bit tired.  No point holding back to an old 10k time.  

    Tonight will be a recovery turbo bike whilst listening to Oxygen Addict podcast.
  • alehousealehouse ✭✭✭
    Thanks for the thoughts, guys! Never got to the bottom of why I kept getting chest infections...not least because I went to hospital I was deemed not to have one! 

    AD: I would up your paces a notch...but not until it gets a bit warmer! Always find paces at this time more hit and miss than from around Easter, although this again can be weather permitting, especially the wind. I would gradually try to increase your long run further: surprising how that improves strength, including strength of mind!

    JGav: a parkrun or race is called for, although I wouldn't be too disappointed if you don't get what you want. Again weather, terrain and not having raced for a while can all have an affect.

    DT: all now seems to be heading in the right direction!
    Progress is rarely a straight line. There are always bumps in the road, but you can make the choice to keep looking ahead.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    Decent run over lunchtime. Usually do 5 miles and aim for 160 bpm. Last 2 weeks it's come out 161 for 6.42 and 6.39 the week before. Today I pushed it out to 6 miles and came in 158 for 6.38. Pretty pleased with that. Shows some progress, or the benefits of having lots of rest this week as family all in Spain. 
  • AndrewDAndrewD ✭✭✭

    So I did my tempo session last night after all. Warm up mile then straight into 3.5 miles at tempo (notionally between 7.20 - 7.30 pace) then a warm down mile.

    I was a little cautious to begin with due to the achey foot, and I think the cold that I have was also impacting on me slightly, as the paces for the first 2 miles were only 7.28 and 7.26 which, whilst within the notional pace band, were about 10 seconds a mile slower than last week's equivalent run for the same effort level. Mile 3 was quicker in 7.13 and the odd half a mile (which was largely uphill) was at 7.18 pace.

    Glad to get the session done, and have two rest days now.

    I am planning to stretch my tempo runs to 4 miles in a couple of weeks, but no longer than that. Does that sound sensible (as I am only targeting a 10k race at the moment) or could I stretch it further than that do you think?

    Alehouse - thanks, I want to extend the long run to 8 miles soon.

    JGav - a 5k in that sort of time is 6:23 pace, which goes to show that your statement about your session earlier this week that 6:10 was '10k pace' is definitely not correct! According to Daniels' paces, off a 5k time of 19:50 your 10k pace would be about 6:40, threshold 6:50 and 6:10 would be more like 3k pace! Makes the session you did even more impressive when you consider that!

    DT - sounds like some good progress, but more importantly - how did you wangle a week at home alone?!!

  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    Well, my wife was covering half term holidays, has mum has an apartment in Spain that she was staying at for February, flights were very cheap so it seemed no reason for them not to. I've had nearly 8.5 hours sleep every night since Sunday.

    So I was picking them up today so had day off. Got up and out for a 20. Felt a bit laboured at times, particularly an 8 mile long straight road that was like a wind tunnel. 

    Sounds positive, Andrew. I think you both need to run a race. It's important to train to current fitness  and not desired but you also need to spot when you've progressed and go with it. That's why I like the use of a hr monitor. 
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭
    Bit more running over weekend including an mlr of 15 miles today gave me a 60 mile week for first time ever. Previous highest was 57 in 2014.

    Current 2 week forecast looks like we are being launched back into deepest winter. 
  • AndrewDAndrewD ✭✭✭
    Yes, looks like a terrible week’s weather ahead. 

    Have had an achey foot this week and the idea that I should be sensible with it, combined with a cough that just won’t bugger off, has meant that I have had to miss my run today. 

    Hoping to be firing on on all cylinders again by Tuesday. 

    Good week DT - seems like you are back in the full swing of things!
  • JGavJGav ✭✭✭
    Just a slow muddy 9 mile trail run with the wifey yeterday. 10mm
  • Dr.DanDr.Dan ✭✭✭
    Popping in to say that I might be back ... 6 runs done between 17th and 25th with no foot issues. All only about 3.5 miles, with two 22:xx parkruns. Still at 100% bike commuting for the winter but look like I may not make it to the end of Feb if the predicted snow lands.
  • JGavJGav ✭✭✭
    Welcome back @Dr.Dan

    Just a slog of a 4 miles at lunch today into snow for most of it. 
  • JGavJGav ✭✭✭
    A supposed to be easy but had a meeting to get back for 8k (40min) at lunch today.  Feel like training is starting to click this week.  However all paces faster than dead slow feel hard with this hideous weather.
  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Sounds promising, Dr Dan!

    JGav, good work. It's pretty tough dragging yourself out there right now.

    A very slow 3.7 miles at recovery last night, which was very difficult to force myself out for as it was 8pm by the time I had my chance. Then a bizarre HMP tester run over lunch ahead of Sundays Bath half.

    Went out for 4 miles. Warm up felt very good. Plan was circa 6.20 pace to see how it felt. This would usually yield a HR of just below 170 over 4 miles. I set off and couldn't slow myself down, however the effort didn't seem to be troubling me and my HR was low. I decided to just go with it. 4 'steady miles' at 6.10mm average with splits of 6.13, 6.10, 6.09 and 6.08 and remarkably a 165 average hr. Same run at the end of August came out at 6.25mm average for 170hr.

    It was bizarre as I was essentially running at 10k pb pace but in a completely controlled fashion. At the end, there was no collapsing to my knees and gasping for air and I had considered clipping along to 10k, but had to be back at work.

  • DT19DT19 ✭✭✭

    Managed to get myself out last night for an 8 miler to complete February. Came in dead on 200 miles (hence why I ran 8 miles) which is my highest ever month and first time at 200 (obviously). The first 2 miles were in an easterly direction straight into the wind. I have never felt so cold running!

    Mini taper now in advance of the Bath half sunday. Getting a bit edgy about the forecast as snow is now forecast both her and in Bath through Saturday night. Last time it snowed I was in good shape and lost a race opportunity. It better not happen again.

  • AndrewDAndrewD ✭✭✭

    DT - I see the Newport half on Sunday has been cancelled already, so Bath must be in jeopardy too (they've even cancelled the Essex 20 on Sunday already too).

    I didn't run last night after all and today looks unlikely. I might be tempted to battle through the weather, but I am still coughing loads and just a short walk to my car this morning in the freezing wind left me wheezing!

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